Fascinating. So if I accept the argument that rap isn’t music, what does that make Jay-Z’s Unplugged album (besides being a fabulous hip hop album that is worth buying if only for Jaguar Wright on “Heart of the City”)? Because we have rap songs (not music) being played by musicians–The Roots–who are, presumably, playing music. Or not music? My headache is coming back.
Opal-Hi! Haven’t heard that, but the misspellings look good.
I tried to get into being a rapper. The thing is, I have absolutely no musical ability, and didn’t want to embarrass myself. Rhyming to a beat is real hard when you’re tone deaf. So instead I just compose (I’d love to be a ghostwriter!)
I really don’t understand at all how people can’t accept it as a musical style after all this time…the skills required are pretty much the same or similar. I can’t teach myself harmonica, it’s just too hard for Muddy Waters riffs. 
I feel no need to justify not liking rap, I try to make sure it doesn’t enter my world. I only hate it when I’m hearing it.
I’d rather listen to Stockhausen (and, no I don’t like Stockhausen).
To musicguy, and others who claim rap isn’t music, I’d like you to tell me whether the following tracks (some hip hop, some not) are music. Just so I can get some idea of where you place the boundaries:
(Note that I’m asking whether these tracks are music, not whether they are good.)
Billy Bragg - Walk Away Renee (Version)
Billy Bragg tells a story about his fling with a girl who went off with another guy. The vocals are in his natural speaking voice, and he ‘acts’ the part rather than just reciting it. The musical accompaniment is the old Four Tops song “Walk Away Renee,” played by Smiths guitarist Johnny Marr.
R.E.M. - Belong.
From their 1991 album Out of Time. Michael Stipe performs his lyrics while Buck, Berry and Mills play an original R.E.M. composition. The vocals are in a near-monotone, and Stipe uses his speaking voice. The words are not sung.
R.E.M. and William S Burroughs - Star Me Kitten
In his gravelly voice, Burroughs reads Michael Stipe’s lyrics over an instrumental of the 1992 R.E.M. track Star Me Kitten.
Pharrell ft Jay-Z - Frontin’
Pharrell sings the verses and the chorus, though in other songs, Pharrell will often rap. In the bridge, Jay-Z adds a rap. The track was written by the Neptunes (Pharell and Chad Hugo), except for Jay-Z’s rap. It has a hip hop beat. Please add if you think that the composition is a piece of music until Jay-Z starts rapping, and for the duration of his rapping ceases to be music.
Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Art Star
The track opens with Karen O chanting in time with the beat. After this, sheets of guitar noise kicks in and Karen O starts screaming the title repeatedly - and not the sort of sing/scream that Kurt Cobain was known for. Literally screaming. The song varies between these parts and includes a section where Karen O hums the main guitar line.
Outkast - Ms Jackson
Written by 'Kast member Andre 3000 on guitar (though not played on guitar). Contains ‘Here Comes The Bride’ replayed in the coda to reinforce thematic elements. Verse and chorus is rapped.
Outkast - Hey Ya
Written by 'Kast member Andre 3000 on guitar. No rapping, though the beats a vaguely hip hop. The song is definitely sung and the vocals have a melody line that can be transcribed. If Ms Jackson isn’t music, and Hey Ya is, I’d like to know how Andre 3000 suddenly learnt to write music, when previously he was a talentless rapper who had computers write his songs for him.
Kelis - Milkshake
Over a Hip Hop/R+B beat, Kelis sings a Neptunes penned tune. The chorus is a playground-style chant, performed by Kelis.
The Beastie Boys - Remote Control (live)
Beastie Boys rap. No singing. I’m not sure about in the studio, but when I saw them live, they played this using live instruments.
DJ Shadow - Mutual Slump
DJ Shadow constructs instrumental hip hop by using hundreds of samples mined from old records. Contains no rapping.
De La Soul ft Chaka Khan - All Good
De La rap the verses in this original composition. Chaka Khan sings the chorus. If this is not music, is the track music in the chorus when Chaka Khan is singing? Why/why not?
De La Soul - Eye Know
De La and producer Prince Paul constructed this track out of a number of samples, including, among others, a loop of Steely Dan guitar and whistling from Otis Redding. The hook is a Steely Dan vocal snippet. De La rap the verses.
Puff Daddy - I’ll Be Missing You
Puffy takes a Police loop, adds a beat and raps about the death of his buddy Biggie Smalls.
Groove Armada make more conventional songs with house beats. Basement Jaxx are more experimental, but should have enough words and singing to satisfy your attention span. The Notwist marry indie pop with glitch-tronica. The Postal Service are a bit indie to really get you shaking your arse on the dancefloor, but there’s still plenty of singing and conventional song structure there. There’s plenty more around.
I fail to see how people could say that rap isn’t music. Just because the featured voice may not be chanting melodiously doesn’t mean that the arrangement (which usually includes some conventional music, anyway) isn’t music. Rap differs from poetry in that the presentation of the words is part of what defines it; the rhythm, the cadence, the inflection, etc. are arranged to be just so (whereas in poetry, the written product is the piece, and it can be read or presented in any number of ways).
From Webster’s: 1) an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and dynamics.
You may argue that rap has no melody, but the pitch and inflection of the words are carefully arranged and would constitute the melody. As for harmony, well I doubt anyone would argue that a solo flute performance wasn’t music… And rap definitely has rhythm and dynamics.
Personally, I have disliked or hated most of the rap I have heard (“Slim Shady” struck me as one of the most awful creations in music history, for it lingered in my head and tortured me for weeks), but there is no way I could justify not calling it music. And no, I haven’t actively sought out “good” rap, so there’s a good chance I may be turned around.
In fact, I really like a couple of songs by a French rapper named Manau, who I first heard about from a French student in my hall (college). The songs I heard had celtic-sounding influences, and the lyrics (that I had to download and look at, for there’s no way I could catch everything just by listening) are intelligent and evocative. For example, in “L’avenir est-il un long passé”, he paints scenes from three different wars, using a recurring image that could plausibly be in each one to transition from one to the next, all the while showing the same suffering at the human level without any real progress, and wonders whether we’re doomed to continue the process. My favorite piece of his is probably “La Tribu (Vallée?) de Dana”, simply because I find the accompaniment and rhythm more engaging, and the story a bit more compelling (it tells the tale of the sole survivor of a tribe defending its ancestral home against an invading horde). But in any case, I don’t think people should be making sweeping generalizations that rap is all about hate, or that it’s all about pimps and whores and gangs. I am sure there are really interesting American rappers who do more with their music and lyrics than spin out the same generic hate. To declare the whole genre as hateful hacked garbage just smacks of hasty ignorance.
In fact, if y’all would be so kind, would people like to point me to some good American rap (please include specific bands and songs), stuff that you consider to be at the top of the genre?
None of my friends are really into rap, so I hope some of y’all will point me to some quality stuff.
Hey! We’re supposed to be hating here!
Glad to. I’ll also make sure I check out the French guy you speak of.
I’ve mentioned The Roots a lot in this thread, mainly because they play their music using actual instruments. But this is incidental; the Roots are worth mentioning because they make great music, not because of the way they make it. You might want to check-out their minor crossover hit You Got Me. Sacrifice and Break You Off from their latest album Phrenology are good too - but really, the whole album is worth listening to.
Outkast are highly recommended, and with good reason, too. They play highly inventive, funk influenced southern hip hop, that balances traditional gangsta elements with wider reaching ideas. Rosa Parks is a good song, as is Southernplayalistacadillacmusik. If you want to buy an album, I’d recommend Stankonia. Their latest is good, but isn’t as consistent as their others, and since it’s really two single albums, lacks the truly stunning moments resulting when Big Boi and Dre work together.
Buck65 is pretty obscure, but he’s interesting. He’s a white Canadian guy for a start, and he MCs and DJs at the same time. His hip hop is sparse and folk influenced. Try Wicked and Weird from his latest album for something a bit more conventional, or try Plastic Bag for a more typical Buck sound.
Along the emo hip hop lines, Sage Francis is great. He does a great battle track with Joe Beats under the name of Non-Prophets called Damage. I also highly recommend his track Fairy With Broken Wings.
I’m just scraping the tip of the iceberg here, and have neglected to mention important artists from the genre’s past (De La, Public Enemy, Run DMC, NWA) or those considered the cream of the underground (The artists on Def Jux or Anticon; Jurassic 5) or other mainstream artists worth mentioning (Eminem, Nas, Dre, Snoop). I’m sure others will come along to fill in the gaps. Hopefully I’ve headed you in the right direction, though.
I’ll just finish by recommending maybe my favourite hip hop track of the year, which is Let Me Watch by MF Doom as Viktor Vaughn. Great music, great narrative, great emceeing.
No, I simply stated my opinion and tried to give my reasoning. I could really not care less as to whether you agree with me or not.
I generally refrain from providing my resume on these boards and it is probably pointless to do so now, but what the heck.
I have over 25 years of experience working professionally in recording studios as a studio musician. I’m a graduate of one of the best music schools in the country, play 5 instruments proficiently, and my writing has been nominated for various awards, including a grammy in 1993. So, hopefully you will pardon me if dont take it too seriously when you tell me I don’t know what I am talking about. You might not agree with my opinions. I can accept that. But I think I have a pretty good idea of what goes on in the industry because, unlike you, I am actually a part of it.
Look at any major musical instrument mfg. They are all producing equipment that randomly generates beats and other instruments. This is professional equipment, not geared towards general consumers. Who exactly do you think their target is? Hint: it isn’t country or jazz musicians. It is geared towards people who might want to make the task of programming their own stuff a little easier.
Also, I think you misunderstand. I’m not saying that all rap music is randomly generated. That is silly. What I said was that there is equipment available that will create beats for you and even fill in bass lines and what have you. Yes, there are people who actually program the beats and yes, there are artists who actually play instruments. I have far more respect for any music that is actually played by actual musicians. But when you drop a loop into a song or have something randomly generated, you are not a musician for doing so. You are a programmer and those titles are not interchangeable. Again, this is just my opinion. I never claimed otherwise.
I do actually do it, for a living. Not for Nelly precisely, but I have programmed many beats for people. And I maintain that it is quite easy. Practice practice practice.
Concerning your long list of tunes that you want my to give my analysis of, I unfortunately do not own any of this “music” and therefore can’t help you there. From previous threads, you should be aware by now that I don’t indulge in illegal file swapping so I would have to buy all of this material to provide the report you requested. No thanks.
I gave my reasoning for what I feel about rap. I don’t see what more I can say. I’m not trying to change your opinion. If you like rap, great. More power to you. I do not, simply for the lack of musicianship present. Thats pretty much all I have to say.
Music is considered to be many things. It’s a pleasing sound to listen to when you’re trying to relax, be entertained, or dance. It’s a compromise between words and sounds. Music is a voice outside of the common talking. It’s a cure for stress, silence, unhappiness, boredom, and other situations. But what does the word “music” really mean? Remember, a dictionary is suggestive tool, not a definitive one. To me, music is the unbounded flow of flattering sounds in a short period of time put together to make a pleasant tune. According to some of my peers, music is “a universal language that everyone enjoys and understands” and “a series of sounds between breaks of silence.” Huey Lewis, an R&B recording artist, once said, “music is a river constantly evolving with no real beginning and certainly no end.” Music isn’t just a combination of words with a tune behind it, but the sounds behind the voices are music, too. Some people may argue that certain types of music are not actually considered music. Four types, techno, R&B, rap, and hip-hop, are in this group of consideration. Because they are all flowing, complimenting, and enjoyable groups of sounds and sometimes words, techno, R&B, rap, and hip-hop are categorized as music.
With a blend of harmonious sound but almost no words, or even no words at all, techno is a little different from other types of music. Techno is music that is assembled with samplers, sequencers, synthesizers, and drum machines. In other words, this type of music is produced with high-technology electronics. Contemporary artists like Chemical Brothers and Moby have managed to carry on the techno version of music since the mid-80s. It’s no wonder why some audiences may not include this in the music category. They would say it is fake tunes created by machines and it has no lyrics. Although this is true, techno music still has the sounds that combine to make pleasing, upbeat, fast-paced tunes. After all, a bogus tune is still a tune. It’s good enough to dance to and is most commonly found at raves, parties, and dance clubs. I think techno music definitely fits the definition of music.
R&B, also known as rhythm and blues, has very laid-back relaxing beats with beautiful voices singing positive and inspiring lyrics. "The voice. The beat. The groove. More than displays of craft and musicianship-though there's plenty of that-R&B performances tend to cleanse the soul, creating a catharsis and uplifting the fans. As it originated in the 1940s, this type of black urban popular music blended strong repetitive rhythms, blues-related melodies and harmonic patterns, gospel music, swing, and electric blues instrumentation. With incredible voices, talented singers such as Keith Sweat, Alicia Keys, Lauryn Hill, Macy Gray, Craig David, Deborah Cox, and Destiny’s Child have managed to extend the life of this type of music for several decades. R&B is music for the dance floor, the bedroom, and the church. It was made for all ages to listen to. Since R&B evolved during times of segregation, many artists never received the credit they earned by beginning this style of music. Why might some people not include this in the music category? Some music listeners may believe it has to be upbeat in order to be music. With this weak assumption and the definition of music, the argument that R&B isn’t music is preposterous.
Rap, another style of music, has an agreeable flow of words with a continuous combination of sounds behind it. As a verb rap has long meant ‘to express orally’. By this it is implied that occasionally rap artists create their own sounds rather than use instruments. For example, a rapper may halfway cover his mouth with his hand and create beats with his voice and lips. Rap originated in New York in the mid-1970’s as a style of African-American popular music. Now it has spread across the nation through the talents of great rappers. Often containing explicit lyrics and sexual content as some of its characteristics, rap is censored on the radio, television, and edited versions of compact discs. As Quincy Jones puts it:
Even though the words of the songs have a blend of sounds behind them, some audiences may throw rap out of the music category. Just because rappers say rather than sing their words, it has been a controversy as to whether rap is or is not music. The Fresh Prince, better known as Will Smith these days, once said, “so long as there’s different types of music, rap will always be around. Besides, there will always be people that can’t sing.” Rap is music without melody and is improvised rhymes performed to a rhythmic accompaniment and therefore it fits the definition of music.
There are many different types and styles of music. Some music is upbeat and some is slow paced. It can have several words, just a few words, or no words at all. Music can be spoken or sung, from one range of vocals to all ranges of vocals. From theme songs of television sitcoms and environment-creating beats in movies to radio stations and CD players, music surrounds us and is a big part of everyday life. Most everyone has there own type of music that they enjoy and they surround themselves with. There are many choices to fit each individual’s personality and life style. Techno, R&B, rap and hip-hop are just a few of the many styles of music. Other types include country, classical, blues, and pop. It doesn’t matter what type you enjoy, you will always be able to pick and choose from several different artists and albums. The variety of music is what makes it so wonderful.
What makes art art? To a pigeon Michelangelo’s David is just a place to sit and perhaps take a dump. What makes it art is the emotions it inspires in people. Hip-Hop speaks to millions of people. It is a multi-billion dollar a year industry that has people dancing the world over. A culture that arose in the poverty-stricken Bronx has taken their shitty lot in life and used it as the inspiration for an art form that has worked it’s way into every form of popular entertainment: Movies, Television, Commercials, Video Games, Plays, the Internet, and, naturally, Radio. Hip-Hop is a musical force to be reckoned with. It is no fad. It is music. One can have their own opinions on how appealing the whole culture and music is, but claims that rap is not music and does not require talent and/or skill are quite simply expressions of gross ignorance.
And haters should be doin’ they hatin’ in The Pit you biatches. . .
DaLovin’ Dj
I agree with the person who talked about how most of today’s rap is simply boasting about their ‘ice’ and ‘hoz’ and how much money they are making and how they are going to kill their enemies…it does get really tedious and annoying. rap is ok when you are in a club having a good time you can dance to it without getting brain damage, but i certainly wouldn’t pop any rapper in my CD player! I think rap is really stupid, and being a young black guy, i am obviously something of a pariah in my community…
dalovindj, your definition of music is very similar to mine yet we disagree on whether rap qualifies. Perhaps we disagree on what is considered “pleasant”.
I’d like to see any of you rap-is-music types describe a rapper’s inflections in either a 5-line sheet music format or a letter format using the C-D-E scale. Keep in mind, though, that I do not buy rap CDs or listen to rap on the radio, and therefore cannot vouch for the accuracy of any such interpretation.
The Mods already moved this thread to Cafe Society. I doubt they’ll move it to the Pit unless we demean ourselves by cussing at each other 
Lots of food for thought there, dalovindj. Some of which is even making me rethink my position, believe it or not. I do take slight exception with the last sentence. Music is subjective indeed but questioning whether or not something is music, while controvertial, is not necessarily based upon gross ignorance, as you attest. In my case, it is an opinion based upon what I subjectively feel is a lack of musical elements present in rap. Feel free to dismiss my opinion, but there are many other serious musicians that would agree with me.
**
There is where the definition of music gets a little too broad for my tastes. An organization of sounds alone doesn’t do it for me. If someone were to cough into a microphone while the sounds of chainsaws buzzed in the background, I would have a hard time classifying that as music. I wouldn’t necessarily be willing to dismiss is as art though.
Yet, the argument concerning whether rap is or isn’t musical isn’t as cut a and dry as I originally attested. This is where my position is not as concrete as I thought. As gex gex noted, there is rap that contains real instruments and tracks arranged and composed by real musicians. That has to be considered in the equation and this is where I have had to rethink my position. There *are some elements, in some rap, that, upon further thought, I would have to consider musical. I tried not to speak in absolute terms in my previous posts but I still said that “Rap isn’t music”. After much thought on the subject, I will admit to being wrong in saying that. I generalized way too much.
Still, I feel a need to point out that subjectively, I am more comfortable with calling something music when there are actual musicians involved. When loops and samples are used exclusively and a voice talks over them, it is hard for me to find where the musical expression lies. Rap may be an organization of sounds used in an artistic way, but to me, that alone isn’t necessarily musically interesting. I’m sure there are many rappers out there who couldn’t begin to explain what makes up a chord or what one is, for example. Yet, this a rudimentary for most musicians. The lack of musical literacy can be glaringly apparent to a musician, even if the public isn’t necessarily aware of it, and that greatly diminishes my ability to enjoy it.
I agree with absolutely everything that I have quoted above. I have said repeatedly that I think it is a very valid artform. As far as whether it is music, using the most simplistic definition of the word, then yes, it is music as well. But the message in the words is really where the focus is, not anything musically that is happening. The beats are really quite simple to someone with any experience playing a percussive instrument. The other instrumentation generally consists of not much more than a bass track and a few loops and synth tracks. For my ears, there really isn’t anything all that special or interesting going on. That is why I don’t prefer to listen to it. Doesn’t mean that I can’t appreciate that others love it.
Fun with Italics
Hey musicguy,
You were doing fine when you said this:
But then you had to follow up with this:
Now I’ll be the first to stand up and say, “I really don’t like the vast majority of rap music that I’ve heard.” Outkast, however, puts out some fantastic material, and to claim that it isn’t music doesn’t make any sense. Take the aforementioned song “Hey Ya.” Actual musicians played actual instruments (guitar, bass, keyboards, drums) to create this song. You’ll find it in the rap section of your favorite music store. Is it music?
-Apoptosis
As I generally get distracted while I’m posting, even short posts of mine can take a while for me to write. Thus the 11 minute gap which rendered my last post moot.
Nevermind.
-Apoptosis
Rapping is all about flow and energy. I am not an outkast fan but a big tupac fan. If you just listen to some of his lyrics and the energy he b
Rapping is all about flow and energy. I am not an outkast fan but a big tupac fan. If you just listen to some of his lyrics and the energy he brings he is amazing. I also like RZA from Wutang. You people saying rap is not music need to lay off the haterade.
Why?
Oh geez I don’t know.
Maybe, to show that it’s music?
Something like that?
Except that it’s impossible…
:rolleyes:
Firstly, you have no idea of my level of involvement in the industry. Secondly, your qualifications and experience in the industry don’t mean shit to me. I know them. We’ve participated in any number of file sharing threads, and it seems that you are eager to spray your apparent credentials about in every one of them.
I don’t care what you’ve been nominated for, and what schools you’ve been to. Your limited perception of music astounds me, and that is what leads me to say that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Wave whatever degree you say you have in my face. I don’t care. Hip hop is one of the more conventional forms of music around. If you cannot cope with the idea of hip hop as music, I wonder what you would make of such forms as glitch, mash-up, turntablism or aleatoric music. To me, anyone who claims hip hop isn’t music has a musical palette so limited that their views (on what is music) are not even worth considering, no matter what qualifications they claim to have.
[quote]
Look at any major musical instrument mfg. They are all producing equipment that randomly generates beats and other instruments. This is professional equipment, not geared towards