The I Hate Rap thread

Cafe Society
121

Firstly, you have no idea of my level of involvement in the industry. Secondly, your qualifications and experience in the industry don’t mean shit to me. I know them. We’ve participated in any number of file sharing threads, and it seems that you are eager to spray your apparent credentials about in every one of them.

I don’t care what you’ve been nominated for, and what schools you’ve been to. Your limited perception of music astounds me, and that is what leads me to say that you have no idea what you’re talking about. Wave whatever degree you say you have in my face. I don’t care. Hip hop is one of the more conventional forms of music around. If you cannot cope with the idea of hip hop as music, I wonder what you would make of such forms as glitch, mash-up, turntablism or aleatoric music. To me, anyone who claims hip hop isn’t music has a musical palette so limited that their views (on what is music) are not even worth considering, no matter what qualifications they claim to have.

I see. So you are aware of the existence of these programs, but cannot prove their extensive use in any form of modern music.

So you appreciate the actual ability to make the sounds rather than the ability to do something with the sounds? Perhaps this is where our viewpoints diverge. I couldn’t care less where the sounds come from, so long as whoever is putting them together does something worth listening to, be that The Edge feeding his guitar through all manner of effects, The Avalanches lining up sample after sample, or that Mick Jones guitar riff (and the drums kicking in) in the Clash’s London Calling.

And since you can’t provide a cite of extensive use of random generators to create modern music, I’m assuming this is a strawman. Why did you post it?

So you’ve told me. Without evidence. Email me the title of one of your compositions. Post a self-programmed beat to some random website. Or preserve your privacy. Just understand that I’m not willing to acquiesce to your apparent mastery of beats without evidence.

Many of the songs I listed are recent pop songs. I’m sure anyone with any connection to the industry could comment on them. Even if they were not able to, all songs I listed contained the info you apparently need to judge the musicality of a track. I included information on whether the instruments where played live or not. I included information on whether the music was written by the artists or not. I included information on whether the lyrics were written by the artist or not. I included information on how the lyrics (if present) were sung or not. These are the elements you used to judge the musicality of hip hop, therefore, you should be able to use the same elements to judge the musicality of other music. I’m only interested in where you draw the line. How much singing before a hip hop song is considered music? How much speaking or screaming before a rock song is not considered music?

I’m not asking you to like rap. I couldn’t care less if you spend the rest of your life hating it. I am simply amazed that you do not consider it music.

It is this assumption that I find most telling. You offer no evidence of this. You appear to have simply decided that since hip hop does not take a form that you are familiar with or appreciate, then many of the artists who create it must not be able to ‘explain what makes up a chord or what one is.’ You sound like a snob, not the musical expert you claim to be. Provide a cite, and then you may gain some credibility.

122

I’ll do this as soon as you describe Michael Stipe’s inflections in Belong on either a 5-line sheet music format or a letter format using the C-D-E scale. It shouldn’t be difficult for you to do so. R.E.M. are one of the biggest and most influential rock groups from the past 20 years of music.

123

So it’s only music if it can be described “in either a 5-line sheet music format or a letter format using the C-D-E scale?”

Seems a rather narrow definition of music to me (and one that dictionaries seem to overlook). I hate to see music confined to this little box. I suggest opening up your mind a bit.

124

This is exactly how I feel. While I can admire the talent it takes to play an instrument well, the bottom line for any music is whether it sounds good to me. How it was created is pretty irrelevant. And I’m not really much of a rap fan.

125

I’m not familiar with that song. I am aware of one REM song, however, that straddles the line between music and rap. I forget what it’s called. So I believe you when you say that there are works that cannot be classified so readily.

Sure, that seems like a reasonable definition to me.

After all, before rap was invented every single piece of music was expressed in these formats (notice the etymology of the term “sheet music”) and even today, instruments are still tuned to precise frequencies.

I don’t see how that’s so narrow.

126

I sure am surprised to find that rap can’t be transcribed into sheet music form.

So I must just be hallucinating all the hip hop and rap sheet music that’s out there. I guess the fact that most of them include “for vocal” is just a dream? I dunno, maybe no one told Tupac?

And, huh! Even Eminem didn’t get the memo. Will Smith didn’t either.

I guess all the marching bands that play rap/hip hop just kinda muddle through it on their own.

127

If rap isn’t music, how is it possible to create rap midi files? If rap can’t be transcribed in a “5-line sheet music” format, how in the hell is it possible for me to run rap midi files through composer software and see notes (on an actual staff, gasp!) that correspond to Tupac’s flow?

“Rap isn’t music” has got to be the lamest statements ever made. It’s like saying Picasso’s works aren’t art since his paintings don’t look like anything. You can admit that rap is music without liking it or respecting it. But if you’re going to disparage an entire artistic genre, at least be fair about it.

(It really blows my mind. How is “Dear Mama” by Tupac not music? “First of the Month” by Bones Thugs and Harmony? "U-N-I-T-Y by Queen Latifah? “Summertime” by Fresh Prince? “Revolution” by Arrested Development? They’ll even have the audacity to say that “Don’t Pass Me By” by MC Hammer (gospel song, believe it or not) isn’t music, despite the organs and the awesome chorus. I’m not an extreme rap fan…I like what I like and ignore the rest. But I can’t help but to think that many rap haters are bigots. Not racial bigots (at least some of them), but music bigots. Just because you don’t get rap doesn’t make it inferior. It means you just don’t like it. I don’t go around making a big deal of my lack of attraction to country music. I wish rap haters were the same way.)

128

Okay, but does the sheet music describe the inflections of the lead vocal?

(I’d check that out myself except that I don’t feel like shelling out money for sheet music and CDs that don’t even interest me.)

129

Seems unnecessarily limiting. And if there’s a dictionary that defines it that way, I’d like to see it.

If instruments were to be tuned to different frequencies, does that meant they can’t create music? Are you sure that “every single piece of music was expressed in these formats”? Sorry, I still find this to be a very narrow definition

130

Give it up, dude. You’re not making sense and it’s embarrassing.

131

Pretty sure.

By all means, prove me wrong.

Aww, c’mon! I’m asking a legitimate question here. I am responding to what Windwalker said, specifically:

In my opinion, the pitch and inflection of the rap that I’ve heard cannot be classified as a melody.

It’s looking like we’re going to have to agree to disagree. Continuing this dialog will only spiral into an abyss of stupidity not suitable for Cafe Society (or has it already?) and until and unless circumstances dictate that I pay attention to rap “music”, it’s going to be hard for me to keep up the intelligence level of the conversation anyway.

132

I guess I’m using a looser definition of melody, but I think it holds true. You can’t really quantify the way a rapper raps with sheet music, but the pitch and inflection are not arbitrary; they are designed by the rapper. You can’t rap “Baby Got Back” with a different pitch and inflection progression and still call it “Baby Got Back” (well i guess you can call it a cover that took artistic liberties). So yes, I consider the main vocal portion to be a melody line, though a less easily quantifiable one.

And I also think dalovindj’s point is a good one, in that dictionary definitions shouldn’t really bind us to what music is. I tend to think that music is anything that is organized sound directed with artistic intent. Yes, that means speech is music, but not very good music most of the time, since one is usually trying to get across words and ideas with little regard for the artistic direction of the sound you’re producing. I like this definition because it is less restrictive and allows virtually any audio composition to be called music without judgment; I remember hearing a piece that took ordinary street sounds and reformed them into a strange composition that was somehow more than the sum of its parts. To me, that is music.

By the way, Gex Gex, thanks for the recommendations. I think I’ll have to sample some of those pieces (using undisclosed methods, ahem ;)) before I buy anything, but I look forward to trying them out. Who knows, maybe I’ll even get some of my friends into it.

:eek:

133

I guess I’m using a looser definition of melody, but I think it holds true. You can’t really quantify the way a rapper raps with sheet music, but the pitch and inflection are not arbitrary; they are designed by the rapper. You can’t rap “Baby Got Back” with a different pitch and inflection progression and still call it “Baby Got Back” (well i guess you can call it a cover that took artistic liberties). So yes, I consider the main vocal portion to be a melody line, though a less easily quantifiable one.

And I also think dalovindj’s point is a good one, in that dictionary definitions shouldn’t really bind us to what music is. I tend to think that music is anything that is organized sound directed with artistic intent. Yes, that means speech is music, but not very good music most of the time, since one is usually trying to get across words and ideas with little regard for the artistic direction of the sound you’re producing. I like this definition because it is less restrictive and allows virtually any audio composition to be called music without judgment; I remember hearing a piece that took ordinary street sounds and reformed them into a strange composition that was somehow more than the sum of its parts. To me, that is music.

By the way, Gex Gex, thanks for the recommendations. I think I’ll have to sample some of those pieces (using undisclosed methods, ahem ;)) before I buy anything, but I look forward to trying them out. Who knows, maybe I’ll even get some of my friends into it.

:eek:

134

Ok, so because I don’t see the same artistic merit or happen to like the same thing that you do, I don’t know what I am talking about. You like it so it must be great. It couldn’t possibly be that you like the simplest, most dumbed down music the industry has ever offered. Rap is the Thomas Kinkade of music. Like it all you want, I don’t give a shit, but to espouse it as great music shows you really don’t have any understanding of more complex forms of music. Rap isn’t in the same league with Miles Davis, The Beatles, or Mozart, no matter how much you want it to be.

Well, lets take a look at one of the advertisements.

If you would read my posts more carefully, you would realize that I never said that all rap music (or any of it for that matter) was made using this equipment. I only said it was possible, as the quote above shows. You can use these tools to create rap, even if you have little or no understanding at all of music.

More correctly, I mentioned the extensive use of loops and samples, which you have not denied. Our difference of opinions is that you think that being able to program, sample, or loop drum patterns makes one a musician. I see it more as an artist with a pallette of tools used to create a work of art. But one need not be a musician to be able to do this. Therefore, calling these artists (a term I have never denied) musicians is a stretch. A musician is someone who can actually play an instrument. A producer or programmer, no matter how talented one may be, isn’t necessarily a musician, and most would readily admit that fact.

That brings us (again) to the definition of music. If music is simply an organization of sounds, then I would have to agree that rap is music. But that isn’t the only definition of music, just the simplest. If this organization of sounds requires no actual playing of instruments, and doesn’t have a melody that can be transcribed into notation form. nor any well thought out harmony, it falls short for me. I’ll concede that it is music, as I did in another post, but I think it is music in its simplest, most dumbed down form, created for the lemming masses, more so than any pop music ever has been. The fact that it is popular gives it validity in the same way that Britney Spears is popular. There is nothing musically interesting going on whatsoever. It is a simple 4/4 drum beat, looped ad nauseum, with a few loops, samples, and maybe a synth track or two added to someone speaking words. If that is great music to you, enjoy till you puke. I prefer to direct my attention to people that have spent their lifetime putting the hard work into being the best at their instruments as possible and creating music with an underlying understanding of composition, and more than one layer of depth.

135

How to write rap

136

Your question is silly, arky, because sheet music rarely captures the inflection of anything. That’s where the performer comes in.

Sheet music can’t capture the wailings of Robert Plant, but that don’t mean Led Zeppelin ain’t music.

The “someone speaking words” is the whole friggin point. But you forget (or maybe ignore) the fact that it’s not just spoken word. It’s about rhythm, style, and content. I would argue that the emphasis on the lyricism of rap makes it more complex, more “intelligent”. Rap songs with a catchy hook don’t move me, but those that force me to listen do.

You aren’t going to hear many “smart” lyrics on a pop rap album, just like you wouldn’t hear “smart” lyrics on a pop rock album. But that doesn’t mean that consciousness and artistry doesn’t exist in the rap genre. It’s offensive to rap artists to say their art is dumbed down just because they emphasize rhythm over melody. Why is one superior than the other? And if both sound good, why does it matter?

I prefer to direct my attention to people who produce music that touches me emotionally. Technicality and esoteric knowledge just bore me, to be honest.

Perhaps that means I’m a part of the lemming masses…

137

No, it is not silly! I have heard MIDIs that do not include a lead vocal track, and I have heard MIDIs that do. Being unfamiliar with the original rap “songs”, I was asking if the rap MIDIs belong to the former or latter category.

We disagree on the definition of music. It’s as simple as that. To you, a rhythm is good enough to qualify. To you, rap sounds good. To me, it must be quantizable in order to be music. IIRC, even the ancient Greeks knew that tones became musical if they had a distinct mathematical relationship with each other.

Oh, and don’t worry about spelling my name right. I’m changing it anyway. :rolleyes:

138

I misunderstood your question, aryk. Yes, rap midi files capture the lead vocal. The rhythm of the rap is present.

I accept rap as music simply because it doesn’t make sense to exclude it. If it’s not music, what is it?

I don’t know why you believe rhythm can’t be quantified. In fact, without rhythm there is no music. Period. There isn’t such a thing as melody without rhythm. You can replicate the rhythm of a tune without a melody. But you can’t replicate a melody without rhythm. Try to hum Twinkle Twinkle Little Star without it. If we have to rank the superiority of rhythm and melody, I think the former comes out on top, don’t you?

I don’t belong to the school of thought where people can come up with arbitrary definitions and expect others to buy them without argument. I can easily say that true music is something that is restricted to 4/4 time. I can say this and believe it, but that doesn’t mean my definition makes sense.

Most importantly, if people–millions of them–accept rap as music, does it really matter if isn’t by the arbitrary standards of music snobs? No, it doesn’t. IMHO, it’s music if a certain quorum of people treat it that way.

139

I never said that rap is a dumbed down artform. That is putting words in my mouth. I said that the music is dumbed down. You said:

And that is my point. It isn’t the music that makes it important. The music is simply an underlying pad that you can tap your feet to. The words and how they are spoken is what is is important. And that is what I think makes rap a valid art form. But that doesn’t make it great music.

And how emotionally would the music touch you if it was instrumental. Or is it really the rapping, and not the music itself that moves you? As an artform, I think rap is profound, necessary, and valid. None of which has anything to do with the musical tracks.

140

Sheet music absolutely can capture the rhythms and melody that Robert Plant sings. Not only can it, it does. That written music is commercially available. Does it capture every nuance? Of course not. All written music is open to the interpretation of the artist. But it can still be written down in a way that can be communicated to others as a language. One of the reasons that it can is because Robert Plant had a terrific sense of rhythm and timing. Even when he is ad-libbing, he is doing it in a way that can be written out both rhythmically and melodically.