The Ineffective Dissemination of Monotheism

Great Debates
121

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I’m weak. :wink:

I am essentially saying that, yes. But I would make a difference between blind cause and “informed” cause. The mother of a murderer has no idea that their child will one day murder. They are the cause of that child’s existence, certainly, and to an extent a cause of those murders (because other things also play a role); but I wouldn’t put any blame on her because she was blind to that consequence. It’s equivalent, in my book, to an accident, and so no blame would fall at her feet. Likewise, I wouldn’t say that God shares blame only because he’s our cause.

OTOH, you get informed causes. Imagine that that mother could, somehow, know that her child would one day murder. Now things are very different. To give birth to that child, to “cause” it, would be for her to essentially cause murder to take place. Just as you’ve been saying, a person with free will must take responsiblity; she must take responsiblity for causing a murderer to exist, something that (in this case) she knows will happen. Of course, mothers don’t get that luxury of knowledge in real life. But God, being omnipotent (i’m assuming you believe him/it to be omnipotent, yours is a somewhat nonstandard God :wink: ) does know whether us humans will murder. He knows all the crimes that we will commit. Thus I would say that by creating us with free will, it is an informed cause, and therefore he shares some blame.
[/QUOTE]

I still don’t agree with that reasoning, but God and the mother knows their son will make some bad choices, that is a necessary element of learning, but doesn’t know what those choices might be. Free will keeps God, psychics, and anyone else who fancies him/her self a predictor of the future from making predictions that come true as honest ones will tell you. One may predict an event in your future as seen at the moment of the prediction, but in the time between the prediction and the event you could change your mind about some small detail and subsequently void the prediction. It can not be any other way with free will. However, God does know you will eventually succeed in learning to not make mistakes and continue on with your spiritual growth.

This is the difference between determination and free will.

122

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I still don’t agree with that reasoning, but God and the mother knows their son will make some bad choices, that is a necessary element of learning, but doesn’t know what those choices might be.
[/quote]
To be clear, you don’t believe that God’s omnipotent, then? He doesn’t in fact know everything?

My point with the mother was saying that she is only to blame if she somehow specifically knew, for certain, that her child would be a murderer. As you point out, she can’t, so this is not a situation that would come up.

I tend to disagree. You don’t get to choose differently. Well, you get the choice, but you will only ever choose one way. There can be only one timeline, if that makes sense; free will exists but the future is still determined.

That doesn’t seem to work. How can God know that without knowing what decisions you’ll make? In order to be able to know people will succeed, he needs to know either the future or enough about us to be able to predict the future with a 100% success rate.

It’s like saying that I could 100% predict what someone will get in a test without actually knowing anything about the person or what choices they’ll make on it. It’s a total disconnect.

Free will and determination can easily coexist.

123

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
To be clear, you don’t believe that God’s omnipotent, then? He doesn’t in fact know everything?

My point with the mother was saying that she is only to blame if she somehow specifically knew, for certain, that her child would be a murderer. As you point out, she can’t, so this is not a situation that would come up. I tend to disagree. You don’t get to choose differently. Well, you get the choice, but you will only ever choose one way. There can be only one timeline, if that makes sense; free will exists but the future is still determined. That doesn’t seem to work. How can God know that without knowing what decisions you’ll make? In order to be able to know people will succeed, he needs to know either the future or enough about us to be able to predict the future with a 100% success rate.

It’s like saying that I could 100% predict what someone will get in a test without actually knowing anything about the person or what choices they’ll make on it. It’s a total disconnect.

Free will and determination can easily coexist.
[/QUOTE]

If your life was determined, you would have no choice in anything, but life is not like that. You and I and everyone else has free will, and the choices we have made in the past has brought us to the place we are now. If we are not happy with our life we can change that at any time by changing our thoughts and beliefs.

Since you don’t know from day to day, moment to moment what choices will be presented to you it is impossible for anyone, including yourself and God to accurately predict where you will be a year from now. One can watch trends and make guesses, like if you don’t change your beliefs and thoughts you still be where you are now. Remember the spirit world cares nothing about fame, fortune, or power of authority. In the spirit world these things are meaningless. They are left behind when you cross over.

God does know you will succeed because He gives you infinite time to learn what you need to learn. It is measured in lifetimes, some take only a few and others take hundreds. Just like a teacher would know you could pass your finals if given all the time needed. Time to look up the answers, ask others, etc. So I think I have answered your concerns.

If you have more concerns please post them.

124

As for the infinite time thing; that doesn’t technically work. Infinite time doesn’t make things certain, it merely makes things very, very likely. However, my understanding of probability is not fantastic, so I could very well be wrong on that.

But free will and determination can coexist.

Imagine that I offer you a choice between two pies, one apple, one pecan. Now, you may decide to pick one of the other, and enjoy a delicious pie. Once you’re done, I come along and put you in my invisible time machine. And off we go to the past, just before past-you made the choice between the two pies. My time machine changes nothing about the past; everything is exactly the same as it was before (it IS what happened before, in fact).

Two questions;

  • Does past-you have free will?
  • Can we predict with 100% accuracy which pie past-you will choose?
125

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
As for the infinite time thing; that doesn’t technically work. Infinite time doesn’t make things certain, it merely makes things very, very likely. However, my understanding of probability is not fantastic, so I could very well be wrong on that.

But free will and determination can coexist.

Imagine that I offer you a choice between two pies, one apple, one pecan. Now, you may decide to pick one of the other, and enjoy a delicious pie. Once you’re done, I come along and put you in my invisible time machine. And off we go to the past, just before past-you made the choice between the two pies. My time machine changes nothing about the past; everything is exactly the same as it was before (it IS what happened before, in fact).

Two questions;

  • Does past-you have free will?
  • Can we predict with 100% accuracy which pie past-you will choose?
    [/QUOTE]

With infinite time one would always be either in progress or finished as a winner.

Now, I still don’t think you can predict with 100% accuracy. What you have is called Monday morning quarterbacking or hind sight is better than fore sight. I don’t think in reality it shows the compatibility of the two opposites.

126

[QUOTE=lekatt]
With infinite time one would always be either in progress or finished as a winner.
[/quote]
Right. But what you were saying is that with infinite time one would - eventually - be finished. I’m saying that actually there’s a chance that you won’t be finished, but in fact stay “in progress” for the entirety of existence (I assume you’re talking life after death here).

Actually, no. The idea of hindsight bias is that you see things after they happen as being more predictable than they actually are; to go with the analogy, it’s like saying “Oh, so-and-so coach should have known that the opposing team would do that!” when in fact, at the time, it’s not something that could be predicted so easily. The flaw is not in the prediction itself, but in the view of how easy that prediction was. It’s a flaw of the person, not the prediction itself.

But I would like to hear you explain why I am wrong. The pie-choosing situations are exactly the same. Nothing has changed between the two. If you chose apple before, tell me, when nothing has changed, you have no added or removed motivations, exactly the same thought processes run through your mind, why you would choose pecan this time. The only way get around it, as I see it, is to suggest that our choices are truly random; something I don’t think you believe.

The opposite of determinism isn’t free will; it’s total chaos. I’d agree that you can’t have at the same time both a determined future and a chaotic future; but determinism and free will, sure.

127

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Right. But what you were saying is that with infinite time one would - eventually - be finished. I’m saying that actually there’s a chance that you won’t be finished, but in fact stay “in progress” for the entirety of existence (I assume you’re talking life after death here). Actually, no. The idea of hindsight bias is that you see things after they happen as being more predictable than they actually are; to go with the analogy, it’s like saying “Oh, so-and-so coach should have known that the opposing team would do that!” when in fact, at the time, it’s not something that could be predicted so easily. The flaw is not in the prediction itself, but in the view of how easy that prediction was. It’s a flaw of the person, not the prediction itself.

But I would like to hear you explain why I am wrong. The pie-choosing situations are exactly the same. Nothing has changed between the two. If you chose apple before, tell me, when nothing has changed, you have no added or removed motivations, exactly the same thought processes run through your mind, why you would choose pecan this time. The only way get around it, as I see it, is to suggest that our choices are truly random; something I don’t think you believe. The opposite of determinism isn’t free will; it’s total chaos. I’d agree that you can’t have at the same time both a determined future and a chaotic future; but determinism and free will, sure.
[/QUOTE]

The opposite of determinism is free will. The opposite of chaos is order. No I don’t see it as you do.

128

Withdrawn. (Why do I allow myself to get sucked into this stuff.)

129

[QUOTE=lekatt]
The opposite of determinism is free will. The opposite of chaos is order. No I don’t see it as you do.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, the opposite of chaos is order, but determinism is order as applied to time and choice. Determinism suggests that all things will only ever go one way; that people will only react in one way to a situation (the exact situation, that is). That is perfect order - nothing will deviate from the one “true” path.

You didn’t answer my question. In a situation that is 100%, exactly the same as another, how could you make two different decisions? You have exactly the same thoughts, the same decision to make, the same time, the same situation. Nothing at all is different. How can you choose differently? The only way is to make the decision totally random, which it apparently is not. I can very easily be convinced i’m wrong; just tell me how you’d be able to make a different decision even though every single factor is exactly the same.

130

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Yes, the opposite of chaos is order, but determinism is order as applied to time and choice. Determinism suggests that all things will only ever go one way; that people will only react in one way to a situation (the exact situation, that is). That is perfect order - nothing will deviate from the one “true” path.

You didn’t answer my question. In a situation that is 100%, exactly the same as another, how could you make two different decisions? You have exactly the same thoughts, the same decision to make, the same time, the same situation. Nothing at all is different. How can you choose differently? The only way is to make the decision totally random, which it apparently is not. I can very easily be convinced i’m wrong; just tell me how you’d be able to make a different decision even though every single factor is exactly the same.
[/QUOTE]

Because we are humans with emotions that change our minds on impulse.

131

[QUOTE=lekatt]
If your life was determined, you would have no choice in anything, but life is not like that. You and I and everyone else has free will,
[/quote]
No, we don’t. Free will is a nonsensical concept. We don’t have free will because “free will” is impossible; it’s impossible because the concept itself makes no sense when actually examined.

At least the idea of “free will” as some sort of third option besides determinism and randomness; if you you are willing to redefine it as “the ability to make choices” even if they are deterministic, that’s possible - but it’s not what most people mean when they say “free will”.

IMHO, what we call “free will” is mostly ignorance; we have little awareness of our own minds, so we don’t know how we come to any particular decision. We label this ignorance “free will”.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Because we are humans with emotions that change our minds on impulse.
[/QUOTE]
Emotions are just as deterministic or random as the rest of our minds.

132

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Because we are humans with emotions that change our minds on impulse.
[/QUOTE]
You’ll get no disagreement from me on that. But those impulses are, again, still the same. The only way they could not be the same is if they are triggered by a truly random process, i.e. one which is not dependent on anything in our situation.

Past-you will have exactly the same emotions and impulses as you did. Because it’s the same situation. Unless those impulses are entirely disconnected from any part of our being - in essence, that they are not “our” impulses - past-you will have them exactly the same.