Love is an action. That’s all I will say at the moment. This whole discussion has me breaking out in the shwarcky-qwuarkies.
Love is an emotion. Not an action, not a god, not the creative force behind the universe or people, and not a polka dotted unicorn. An emotion, and that’s it.
Mine doesn’t either, perhaps my post was not clear enough.
OK, I will agree that Love is an action, among other things. But what the heck is shwarcky-qwuarkies. There is no need for them, whatever they are.
Monty was having a bit of fun with the fact that you referred to the “murders” of Jesus rather than the “murderers” of Jesus.
Thanks, Now I understand.
Teenage kids do the moral equivalent of this all the time. 
But you’re right, it is crazy. It is totally irrational, and it is caused by millions of years of evolution. Just about anyone holding his or her baby for the first time can confirm what I say. It’s further evidence that love is not some supernatural thing - it is a purely physical reaction, created by our genes and hormones for a very good evolutionary reason.
Most people have heard that, but that doesn’t mean it makes any sense. Love is good, god is good, so god is love. (Except when he kills people - or is that love too.)
Are you saying God did not create tsunamis. Ah, but you have a non-sched theology. Maybe your god doesn’t create anything.
As for love, if you can fall out of love it isn’t unconditional. I don’t think romantic love is unconditional. Love for children is.
When you experience it, you will understand it.
Since you can’t describe it or explain it, why don’t you go ahead and coin a new word for it other than “love”, since that word is already taken.
I am not suggesting God could make a mistake. Go back to the school example. I send my hypothetical child to school. Likely, this will result in harm to him, but I do so anyway because I think a greater good will result. My sending him to school is not a mistake. And certainly I regret that harm will come to him - and would decrease it if I could - but my higher priority, that he gets a good education to set him up, wins over those.
Likewise, God gives us free will. Likely, this will result in harm to us, but he does so anyway because he thinks a greater good will result. His giving us free will is not a mistake. I would suggest that God certainly regrets the harm that comes to us - and again that he would decrease them, when he can - but his higher priority, that we have free will, wins over those.
That’s not what i’m saying. In fact, i’ve pointed that out specifically now twice. I have at no point said that, and as i’ve pointed this out before, I humbly ask you to quote to me the exact place where I suggest that no blame lies with me (or us in general) or apologise for suggesting i’m a blame-shifter. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me (other than, you know, disagreeing back 
) but I do have considerable problem with someone misrepresenting me.
Anyway, what I* am* suggesting is not that someone *other than me * must be blamed, but that someone *as well as me * must be blamed, if they have had a hand in whatever horrible thing i’ve done. As in my example earlier, if someone gives me the gun with which to shoot someone, knowing that that is what i’ll do with it, they share the blame with me. I am wrong, and in addition to me being wrong they are also wrong. Likewise, God has given us free will, knowing what we’ll do with it. Thus, he shares (as in does not replace, but also has) the blame with us. He also has some blame.
Your own argument is that those beings with free will must take responsiblity and blame. I agree. But God also has free will, and thus he also must take responsiblity and blame for his actions. *Your own argument * says this.
OK, I don’t agree with your examples, if you shoot someone with a gun it is your responsibility not matter how you got the gun. But people can act together to harm others as in a linch mob.
God gave us free will knowing that we needed to learn to use it wisely, this is true. The choices you make are entirely yours, sure you and I and everyone will make mistakes, some more than others. Just work improving yourself and forget about the others, let them improve themselves.
Yes, it is my responsiblity. Again, I am not denying that. I would have responsibility, and blame. I would have responsiblity and blame. At no point have I argued anything different to that. My argument is that, while I hold responsiblity and blame, anyone who helped me to commit that horrible crime would also hold responsiblity and blame. “Also” meaning “as well as”. Not only I holding responsiblity and blame, but someone else holding responsiblity and blame as well.
Lynch mobs are another good example. Is only the man who ties the knot to blame? No, the person who got some kicks in, the person who egged people on, they’re also to blame. Blame is shared.
Right! He knew that we needed to learn it - thus he knew that we did not know this already. Thus he knew that we would not use it wisely at first. And thus he knew that his actions would cause unwise, and harmful, consequences.
I am quite willing to forget about God and let him improve himself. Are you? Or do you, in fact, not hold this view, since it (like many other arguments you have made) in fact lead you to a totally different view than the one you hold?
I don’t understand why you persist in blaming God for human mistakes. I will explain some more. You are an eternal being, created in the image of God/Love.
All learn to grow spiritually, even if it takes thousands of years. You are in a win, win situation. You have an eternity to learn to not make mistakes and grow spiritually. There is no need to blame anyone for anything. Just get with the program and learn everything you can about yourself, others, this world, learn it all. Be positive about life, quit downing everything and look for the good side. The more you love, yourself and others, the more you grow. After the initial breakthrough everything becomes easier and faster. See yourself in everyone.
And yet you do it. Your argument clearly shows that God needs to also have blame for those things (and not just mistakes). Your own argument says that. So, really, at this point i’m just convinced you don’t actually care what anyone else says. You just go into “lecture mode” and dole out some more truth. Which again suggests something that you don’t realise.
I have respect for believer’s views, in that at least they are consistent. I may not agree with kanicbird, or Polycarp, but their arguments make sense and their inferences work, if you grant the original premise. Yours just don’t. You pay no attention to your own arguments and what they result in. I frankly think you just don’t care about them anymore; for you, the belief is important, and any argument you may make is temporary and unimportant.
I never thought i’d say this, because I know it’s going to make me look like I have no answer for your cunning and truthful arguments. But right now i’m willing to accept whatever hit to whatever reputation I might have with you in order to not continue this debate, since I no longer believe you will do anything but peddle false logic that you don’t even believe in. So… yes. Thanks for the debate, at least, but i’m done.
Experience what? Unconditional love for a child? I have, twice. Still there after over 25 years.
I really am trying to understand what you are saying, another thought I had was you are saying “cause” constitutes someone to blame. For example because God created us He is to blame for our mistakes. I don’t buy this, of course. Everyone is to blame for their own mistakes. The mother of a murderer is not to blame for her child’s killings. This is the only way it makes any sense or logic.
If you want to quit, just don’t respond to this post, it is ok.
I am talking about unconditional love now, as experienced by a near death experiencer or others.
I’m weak.
I am essentially saying that, yes. But I would make a difference between blind cause and “informed” cause. The mother of a murderer has no idea that their child will one day murder. They are the cause of that child’s existence, certainly, and to an extent a cause of those murders (because other things also play a role); but I wouldn’t put any blame on her because she was blind to that consequence. It’s equivalent, in my book, to an accident, and so no blame would fall at her feet. Likewise, I wouldn’t say that God shares blame only because he’s our cause.
OTOH, you get informed causes. Imagine that that mother could, somehow, know that her child would one day murder. Now things are very different. To give birth to that child, to “cause” it, would be for her to essentially cause murder to take place. Just as you’ve been saying, a person with free will must take responsiblity; she must take responsiblity for causing a murderer to exist, something that (in this case) she knows will happen. Of course, mothers don’t get that luxury of knowledge in real life. But God, being omnipotent (i’m assuming you believe him/it to be omnipotent, yours is a somewhat nonstandard God ) does know whether us humans will murder. He knows all the crimes that we will commit. Thus I would say that by creating us with free will, it is an informed cause, and therefore he shares some blame.
Thanks loads. I don’t plan on nearly dying to test out your hypothesis.