The Jehovahs Witlesses called today

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
221

Two things:

First, I note that you have ignored my posts re JWs and work, raindog. I am sure you’ll say that if the JWs got permission from the hospital administration to stand there and bother people, why do I have an issue with it or some such. I firmly believe that people have the right to come and go w/o being harassed continually by sentinels at the doors. If a guy was trying to sell me something in that spot, I’d feel the same.
Second, while it’s real nice that you have repeatedly pointed out that the JWs don’t find it unethical to call again after being told to go away, you have conveniently overlooked that there are 2 parties to this interaction. The victim of this harassment has no say in the ethics of a situation involving him? I find that odd and distasteful. You’ve already delineated the no-win game you all insist on perpetuating: the JWs around here only come around once a year. If I tell them to not come again, they still will–since their policy is to harass you again in a year.
NPR I can turn off (and do during pledge drives–I give every year and it’s obnoxious to be constantly reminded for a week). I have never had a salesman come back to my door after being told I’m not interested. I turn away girl scouts (don’t like their cookies). I do all of this politely. I am even polite to the JWs, but it takes some doing. Here’s why:

People tend to get angry when they feel they’re not being listened to. JWs have been told NO and yet, here they come again. I frankly don’t think this is an issue of legalities or freedom of speech (how quickly you go lofty and noble on us), but one of social courtesy and human relations: in not listening to people, JWs set themselves up as knowing better than their victims–“afterall, you may have changed your mind” type stuff–as if we don’t know our own minds. That sets up people’s backs as well. Add to it the arrogant righteousness of their religious POV and you’re up to 3 strikes. I pity those who believe in JW stuff. IMO they are both misguided and misinformed. I want no part of the crazy. Leave me alone. And yet, they will come back, building up resentment and animosity all in the name of God’s love.

It really doesn’t matter how polite they are when they call–being polite disables complaints of harassment. You say they won’t come back, ever, if told not to. But then you say they will try again after some period of time has elapsed–these two statements are mutually exclusive. Please don’t quote the Founding Fathers at me. Your freedom of speech ends when I’ve told you I’m not interested.

222

It was created because of abuses by telemarketers. JWs have no such restraints put on them on Free Speech issues, and practice a level of responsible restraint voluntarily.

Are you a Christian, or familiar with their teachings? Perhaps you’ll recall Christ’s reference to a narrow and cramped road leading off into salvation where few find, and the broad spacious road with many people leading off into destruction?

I mean, Christ himself ran the math and concluded that for every “convert” there would be many that rejected Christianity. And that fact holds up quite well historically. That 37,000 people (which was the USA only IIRC) represents 300 new congregations.

Do you have a performance metric for proselytizing? Of course not. This is a very effective way to reach people. Even then, however, you’re missing the point. JWs do this because Christ did. JWs do this because the Apostles did this. JWs do this because Christ commanded it. If not 37,000 converts were made, but 37, they’d still be out there.

Even ethically your minor inconvenience is the price that is paid for your next door neighbor, who found that learning about Christ is the best thing that’s ever happened for them.

And it isn’t JWs. Many people have had their lives changed over some worthy cause, at the cost of minor inconvenience to someone else.

I think you’re not seeing this from a global view. It has less to do about JWs than it has to do with expressing ideas and how freedom is practiced.

223

Please take your witnessing elsewhere–I believe such stuff belongs in GD.
I’ll take the broad and well beaten path over any cramped and narrow JW nonsense any day–and it IS nonsense. And now I have to go to work. At least it’s not Sunday, so I won’t see the JWs (oops–it’s cold outside, so they don’t bother to save souls on cold days…)

224

You misspelled “three months”.

HEATHEN! Burn the witch!

225

A. I don’t care to pay even a mild inconvenience for someone else’s benefit involuntarily. B. Do you seriously fucking think nobody knows who Jesus is?

Obviously, a lot of people think that the door-to-door people don’t practice responsible restraint.

These two statements are completely incompatible.

226

Again: this is not a free speech issue. The first amendment applies only to the government. I support JWs’ right to free speech and have not suggested the government should block them from doing what they do. I think the JWs can do more to respect the wishes of people who are not interested in witnessing, that’s what it comes down to. Free speech does not require that we respect each other’s views, but I think showing that respect is still a good idea and it leads to better communication.

I’m not a Christian. I do think I understand their teachings and the reasons they share their message.

How can you conclude it’s very effective, then? We know that a very small number of the people who are contacted by Jehovah’s Witnesses join the group. But what about the number of people who might be more interested in the Jehovah’s Witnesses if they didn’t have a reputation for bothering people this way?

227

If I clearly display a ‘No Soliciting’ sign on my front door, it is safe to assume that I do not want to be bothered except by people who know me personally, or by people who have made an appointment to come visit. All sane, reasonable, polite people know this.

Strangers who choose to ignore this sign and bother me anyway are being rude. Among sane, reasonable, polite people there really is no room for debate on this point.

Furthermore, as long as that sign remains visible they have absolutely no right whatsoever to assume that my wishes on the subject have changed in any way. If they bother me a second time, they have moved from being rude to being downright obnoxious and hostile to my wishes, whether they call once a year or once a decade. I would expect them not to bother me in the first place.

228

If you believe he is witnessing, please report the post rather than taking it into the thread.

I don’t think what the raindog said qualifies as witnessing, though. He’s speaking positively about his religion, that’s true, but responding to (some) arguments being made by other posters. If the rest of us can say JWs are annoying, he’s allowed to say they’re not so bad. I think of witnessing as starting solely religious topics or injecting it into non-religious debates out of the blue.

At this point the thread might be better suited for GD, but I’ll let another mod make that call.

229

Sometimes the look on their face is the reward. :slight_smile: I’ve worked with lots of people who think it’s rude to turn away, hang up, or close the door, while someone is still talking, so in an effort to not be rude they put up with too much. IMO when someone has called me or come to my door uninvited to try and sell me something and *then * they keep talking when I say “not interested” they are being rude and have given up their right to continued courtesy. A door in the face is an appropriate non rude response. The hose idea sure is appealing. Some time ago in a thread about yard sales people were talking about the folks who come an hour before the sale starts and even knock on the door to want to see the goods. One lady said she put a sign out that said Early Birds Get the Hose.

I can imagine a couple of JWs that continue to talk after someone says “Not interested” and that person casually walks to the hose with JWs in tow, still talking. Turning and smiling our home owner points the hose at the JWs and begins the countdown 3…2… That’s when the look comes as the JWs realize the hose is for them and begin to scurry away …just a bit to late. Ahhhhhhhhhh

I feel better just writing it.

230

Totally NOT a JW here, totally not into doing door-to-door anything, totally believe in freedom to do so. I do believe that ‘No Soliciting’ signs should be respected, as well as “Please don’t stop here anymore” requests. However, regarding the latter, people DO move away & new ones move in.

the raindog wasn’t witnessing, he was noting how Jesus’ words about the narrow vs broad ways matched the numerical results of JW door-to-door efforts.

Btw, 37,000 people a year U.S. ISN’T that insignificant a number. My local church (AoG) runs about 500, so that’s 74 of us. I assume JW congregations run about 125 people.

eleanorigby, why do you come into a thread about a religion, in which every one is having fun insulting or bitching about it, and then get all huffy about “witnessing” from the one person who who actually has the temerity to stand up for it?

the raindog, while your experience may not match some of the horror stories here, you gotta admit that, as has been said, “there are dicks in every religion”. I cringe when I hear people telling of encounters with dickish AOG members or churches, but I have to admit those stories could very well be valid.
That said, kudos to you for standing up for your faith here.

Of course, one of these days, we gotta thrash it out over the Trinity, Jesus’s deity, the 144000, and why the Society now follows Rutherford more than Russell?
While still disagreeing with many of his teachings, I find Russell’s much more reasonable & Biblical than where Rutherford took them.

231

Evidently that lady wasn’t aware of her own sin. A perfect candidate for the hose.

232

As I was saying to eleanorigby, let’s not derail this thread into a debate about whether or not the raindog is witnessing.

233

JW’s claim that the believe in one god, yet they believe Jehovah is god and Jesus is a god, but there is only one god Jehovah but Jesus is also a god but there is only one god Jehovah.

234

Merchants invade my home to try and sell me stuff when I’m trying to watch TV. If I like the show I put up with it. I don’t think the JWs are being unethical at all.

235

Those merchants are paying for the show though. It does no good to compare Door-to-Door bell ringers to advertisers. It just is not the same. They also don’t wake us up when we are sleeping late. :wink:

236

While I dislike advertising in general I don’t think it’s inherently unethical. I do think it’s unethical to say “we will respect your wishes if you are not interested” and then look for ways to avoid doing so.

237

Oh yes they do if I forget the sleep timer. Ever notice how much louder some commercials are than the regular show.

Your point is well taken. The advertisers are indeed paying for the show I enjoy and it was a bad analogy. Still, I don’t think JWs are being unethical in practicing their religion religion according to the dictates of their beliefs and conscience. That’s what the door to door is. In a free country they get to practice and we get to respond {the hose} Seriously, I don’t excuse people for bad behavior simply because they claim good intentions and it’s for their particular Lord. We shouldn’t be afraid of not offending the offenders. The folks who stand outside an emergency room need too be forced to leave. It is private property isn’t it?
Years ago some religious nuts were in down town Bangor Maine standing on corners in the main square and shouting Bible passages at the top of their lungs. They were hurting the business of the downtown merchants. One merchant told me the police refused to act because they were concerned about some religious freedom lawsuit. IMO they should have been cited for disturbing the peace and arrested if necessary.

I agree that a NO Solicitors sign is an already expressed “Not interested” The fact is that even when clearly displayed those signs often go unnoticed. Perhaps banging there head against the sign repeatedly …no that’s assault.

238

If that’s what’s happening I agree. We don’t know that’s the case. I don’t know how the JW canvasing is organized. I imagine different congregations have different approaches. Some may not keep good records of who said “I’m not interested” and who added " don’t come back" Some may encourage a more assertive approach as in , don’t quit after the first no. I think claiming that’s unethical is nitpicking definitions.

They get to witness and we get to decide an appropriate response. That’s how it works. Yes it’s annoying. Try a different approach. Get a hose. Say something outrageous just to see the look on their faces.

“I’d really like to hear all about Jesus but right now I’m having an orgy. Would you like to join in? Perhaps we could talk afterwards”

or “Is this the religion that allows me to have multiple wives, including some around 13 or 14?”

Have some kind of alternative pamphlets at hand to pass out to them. The wackier the better. It’s not just an invasion of your privacy. It’s an opportunity. :smiley:

239

I think being a non-Christian may put you at a disadvantage as it relates to how JWs specifically, and proselytizers generally, both assess and value effectiveness.

In any endeavor people use measurements to evaluate effectiveness. Direct mail marketers can tell you that a .05% response (as one example) is a measure of effectiveness. I do not believe any such performance metric exists for proselytizing however.

There is however, a basis for determining the relative value of what is measured. For JWs it is the Christian model. Again and again the bible indicates that Christians were to anticipate that most would reject the message. Christ himself experienced this. His Apostles experienced this. And, there were “measurements” offered up; Christ himself indicated that most would reject the message-----and in fact said that they Christians would extremely unpopular in some quarters.

The Christian Model uses it’s own cost benefit analysis. When Jesus said that a man would leave 99 sheep to find 1 lost sheep he was making a case for the value of every single human life. (and we’re hardly the only ones that might practice what you might consider a distorted cost benefit ratio; armies will often take outsize risks to recover a single ***dead ***soldier, and even greater risks when he’s alive.)

But that’s not to say that JWs are unconcerned with effectiveness. They work very hard to be effective when speaking to people. According to Christ, however, the ministry a requirement for those would call themselves his followers.

So popularity, while a good thing, must be secondary to the commission to preach given by Christ. Who took the question of preaching vs popularity to it’s logical conclusion: his death.

240

Someone should also point out that according to the JW website, they had 37,000 baptisms in 2007 in the U.S., not 37,000 people converted from door-to-door proselyting. I’d wager a large percentage of the 37,000 grew up Jehovah’s Witnesses and weren’t converted. That being said, it is my understanding that JWs have a fairly involved process for being baptized, unlike the Mormons, who will baptize anyone who has a pulse and doesn’t mind getting wet.