Only if you define Judaism *solely *as an ethnicity. This definition is simply wrong, as any number of Jews-by-choice will be happy to explain to you.
Yes, and there are many observant Jews who are not ethnically Jewish (see my response to Alessan).
This doesn’t even make sense.
It certainly isn’t clear to me and to many others participating in this discussion.
“American Judaism” is not an identifier of ethnicity.
He’s referring to the religion, not the ethnicity. The comparison doesn’t work.
And many atheists who are Jewish.
Sure it does. Simply put, the bigotry on display in the OP is not merely a critique of religion in general (subspecies Judaism).
Then you (and these “others”) are being wilfully blind.
It quite obviously is, in this context.
Riddle me this then: are you seriously contending that the guy blasted in the OP has no problem with atheist Jews (in many places in America, the majority) - who support Israel?
If so, you need a reality check.
What is meant by “American Judaism” is clearly in this context no more and no less than Jews who happen to be American. The quotes in the OP say nothing and indicate nothing about theism and saying they do is purely a disingenuous attempt to avoid the obvious - that this here is a bigot - by linking that bigotry to disapproval of religion in general.
This isn’t merely my opinion, it is fact. Some of the fellows he specifically singles out in his tirade to tar all “American Jews” are, in fact, “Jewish” only by ethnicity - see for example Charles Krauthammer (an atheist).
Cite: Charles Krauthammer - Wikipedia
No, he’s not.
What have “… public figures like Douglas Feith, Lieberman, Wolfowitz, Perle, Krauthammer, Abrahams, Pipes and Lewis Libby etc.” in common? It sure as shit isn’t the fact that they are religiously observant! :rolleyes:
I’m interested in kearning what specific Jewish beliefs he has a problem with, since he hasn’t deigned to mention any.
Everyone prefers to have their own nation. The Nazi’s preferred to have their own nation. It didn’t work out that way.
Just because you prefer it doesn’t make it a right. If Israel wasn’t sitting on a piece of desert, it would have never been an option.
Defend yourselves. By all means. But do it on your own dime, not ours. Without US aid, perhaps Israel would survive… perhaps not. I personally don’t care one way or the other. I’m interested in the strategic interests of the United States, and Israel is not a strategic asset, economy or piece of desert. Indeed, I submit that if it weren’t for our relationship with Israel, we wouldn’t be in Iraq and Afghanistan today.
If all Jews feel that Israel is their birthright, why not emmigrate to the holy land? I respect a jew who puts his balls on the line for what he/she believes. Not for the jews that live throughout the world complaining of anti-semitism and asking other governments to pump money into their sandbox, while they live the good life in the US and the rest of the western world.
One other thing I don’t understand in this thread. How can you be a jew and an athiest at the same time? That makes no sense to me. I thought the religion and the culture were intertwined. Learn something new every day.
Is he smearing an ethnic group, a religion, or a country? I guess before I call someone a bigot, I’d have to understand the point of attack.
For example, I don’t have a problem with Jewish people that are US citizens, put America first, and are willing to shoulder their share of the burden of living in this country (and that includes participating in the military).
I don’t have a problem with the Jewish religion, as I don’t have a problem with any religion.
I have seen many slams on this board about Christianity being an evil cult, and very few blink. The ones that do are labeled brainwashed freaks or right wing fundies. Be consistent. If a religion is a cult, they are all cults, including the Jewish religion.
I DO have a problem with the state of Israel and its policies, including the drag of Israel on America’s ability to do what is in its best interests in the Middle East without worrying about any impact on Israel. Does that make me a bigot? Not by my definition. There are many countries I don’t care for, Israel happens to be one of them. I don’t judge a people by the dictates of their government. Just as I hope no one judges me by the dictates of mine.
But that happens all the time.
oh, and for the record, I realize this thread is way off track.
My apologies to the OP.
Jews can’t complain about anti-Jewish bigotry, because Israel exists - even if they don’t happen to live there?
Colour me confused.
To begin with, “all Jews” don’t believe the same thing. Some believe that Israel is their country and some don’t. Some that don’t, quite naturally sympathize to an extent with those that do, because they share many things in common (specifically, an ethnic identity).
This is hardly an unusual situation.
Because Judaism isn’t necessarily, or even primarily, a religion. It is an ethnicity associated with a religious belief.
In Israel, “secular” Jews are probably the majority:
In America, Jews are more likely to be non-religious than the general population:
To use a specifically “religious” definition of Judaism probably leaves out one-third to half of all Jews world-wide.
It’s gone off track in the exact same way as every other thread that mentions the word “Israel” in the OP always goes. It gets kind of boring after page 3 or so.
For the record, **Stink Fish Pot **, I disagree with virtualy everything you’ve written, but I don’t think you’re an antisemite. This board has plenty of people who don’t like Israel, but the only one who is ever repeatedly accused of being an antisemite is Sev. Mull on that.
In this case his target is “American Jews” in general, so it isn’t a religion and it isn’t a country.
The notion that anyone is smearing this guy for his dislike of Israeli policies is simply mistaken. He’s being smeared, and rightly, for his Jew-hatred.
One can dispense with the religious aspect without rejecting all cultural connections.
One other factor, at least for me, is that historically, those who’ve conducted pogroms and other campaigns of harassment and extermination have not always been scrupulous about distinguishing between religious Jews and atheists/agnostics. I doubt that the next outbreak, whenever it occurs, will only single out the religious.
So I feel that I have a stake in fighting bigotry.
Incidentally, I have been critical when someone “on my side” says something bigoted on the subject of the Mideast conflict. Somewhere in the depths of the dusty SDMB archives is a thread in which I came down on december when he crossed the line and posted objectionable comments about Arabs/Palestinians (something far milder than what Sevastopol has said). I’m not especially proud of that action; I should have spoken up sooner than I did.
To supporters of the Palestinians who are making excuses for Sevastopol’s bigotry - why is it so hard for you to reject his tactics?
Fair enough. I will admit to not following his posting or style at all.
I guess I should have stayed out of this pit thread. I was just riled by the OP without knowing the history of Sevestapol.
Again, I appreciate the info. I’ll bow out of this thread until I get a better feel for who/what Sevestapol is all about.
You can also be a religious Jew and an atheist – hell, you can even be a rabbi and atheist, at least in my movement.
Jewish identity is really complicated, and anyone who says there is one simple way to tell who is a Jew/who isn’t a Jew is blowing smoke.
No, I am not shitting you. The quoted material in the OP does not suggest a Jew-hater, it suggests that there is lack of tolerance of dissent among Jews over the subject of Israeli policy and that portions of the public hold it against the Judaism. The sort of thing that suggest anti-Semite are the classic stereotypes used in a manner to denigrate a whole people. I’m very suspicious of charges of anti-Semitism when leveled at people criticizing Israeli policy. That is frequently, but not always “shitting”.
WTF?
As I pointed out in the OP Sev called Judaism polluted and corrupted. He wrote that, “Jews have a deep obligation to Israel no matter what.”
How are accusations that Judaism is dirty or that Jews have dual loyalties not evocative of classic anti-Semitism? Is anything short of accusing Jews of grinding up Christian children to make matzo to be shrugged off?
From the three samples you’ve provided, it seems that not only is Sevastopol critical of Israel and Zionism–not Jews–he is inveighing against how Zionists have sullied Judaism. If anything, that’s somewhat pro-Jewish.
Here’s the thing. Sev has not, to my knowledge, condemned Judaism (at least no more so than he’s attacked religion in general). He has, however, observed that by creating strong associations between Judaism (and Jewish identity) and Israel, Zionisms have made Judaism dirty. That’s hardly the same thing as calling Judaism an inherently corrupt religion.
Yes, aside from a few odd beliefs like wanting Israeli settlers to all be shot since they’re morally defective subhumans, he’s very pro-Jewish.
Non sequitur argument. What do Nazi’s have to do with this? Not everybody prefers to have a nation, but most do indeed…Assyrians, Kurds, Sami and Palestinians being among them.
Who are you to even discuss anybody’s right to sovereignty?
Are you kidding me? So Israel was an option only because it was sitting on a piece of shit arid land far from any notable natural resources or major trade routes? Gee, that sure makes sense.
It survived fine through several wars without any US aid, and it would continue to do so.
How do you think that anything in Iraq or especially Afghanistan affect Israel in the least? Are you aware of which spheres of influence are involved, or even the distance? I might give you a point of you had mentioned Iran or Syria, whose spheres of influence affect Israel…but Iraq and Afghanistan affect Israel for shit.
I live in Sweden because I happen to be born here, no other reason. My only reason to uproot myself and move to Israel would be if antisemitism here became so ripe that the situation became untenable, and if that happens I’m happy to have Israel to bugger the fuck off to, instead of having to apply for asylum at any random nation. It’s a luxury, but one I’m glad to have. Once a year the neo-Nazis march past my window in Stockholm to remind me of that fact.
And no, I’m not asking anybody to pump money into Israel.
How can somebody celebrate Christmas and not believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ? Plenty of people do. Religion and culture are intertwined, but you can have one while merely respecting the existence of the other. Faith isn’t a choice.