The Leiby Kletzky case. Can anybody begin to explain this?

This is so bizarre you can’t make it up.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/07/13/2011-07-13_body_of_missing_boy_leiby_kletzky_8_found_in_dumpster_in_park_slope.html

This 8 year old Hassidic boy was abducted, killed and cut up.

Was Freud right about the Id, the Ego and the Superego? Did this killer’s Id just override everything. Why?

I’ve tried to roll this around in my head but I’m having trouble coming to grips with it.

Yes, it’s pretty simple all in all.
Some people are lunatics, they do crazy things. Sometimes these crazy things involve murdering people, chopping them up, and saving their feet in their freezer.

Our Lynn Bodoni said it best:

I don’t know, but this thread looks more like a solicitation for opinions than a thesis to debate.

Off to IMHO.

[ /Modding ]

The article in the Times says that there was no evidence of sexual abuse and that the guy apparently “panicked” which was why he killed the boy. But no, I can’t explain what happened. It’s particularly horrible, as that day was the first time his parents allowed him to walk home alone.

Actually I didn’t wand to state a “humble opinion” because I have none other than being appalled. I wanted a debate. But have it your way. Can’t fight the power.

I’m betting the guy was either a sociopath or a pedophile. If he was a sociopath, we’ll probably never understand, as minds without consciences just don’t operate in a manner normal people can get their heads around. If he was a pedophile, which certainly seems to be a possibility given the mention of him trying to lure another boy into a car, it will come out eventually. That he has no record of it means nothing. A lot of child molesters and abusers are hidden in the Orthodox Jewish community because people think turning them in to the secular authorities is mesirah (informing) and thus forbidden. Many rabbis say it isn’t, but the stigma is still there. So they never make it into the court system or onto the registry, or when they finally do, they’ve already hurt a lot of people (see Yehuda Kolko, Yisroel Weingarten, Ephraim Shapiro, and others). I’m sure that if that turns out to be what happened to Leiby, the situation will change.

Either way, it’s pretty obvious that Levi Aron was a sick, sick guy. I bet Leiby saw a guy who looked Orthodox and figured he was safe to ask for help.

Does Orthodox Judaism have an “official” position, one way or another on Capitol Punishment for a murderer?

(for example, the official Catholic position is that the death penalty is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the crime, correct?)

Thanks. That is the kind of response I was looking for when I posted the OP. All that being said, are you suggesting that there may be sordid condition in the Jewish orthodoxy that is being hidden from the authorities much like what has been exposed in the Roman Catholic pedophile scandal?

(This is why I posted the OP in GD.)

Having been raised in the Roman Catholic Church I am totally disgusted with how the authorities in the RCC have handled and responded to the scandal. What I am wondering is if there is a similar scandal brewing among the Jewish orthodoxy. Based on some of the molestation reports it wouldn’t surprise me. If so, it will be different but, not really all that different. The RCC is institutionalize, the orthodox Jews are more of a moving target.

I should add that I do actually understand that not all religions have a single supreme leader, like a Pope or a Church President (as in the LDS religion) so maybe there is no “official” teaching/position on executions.

Just asking out of curiosity…

Well, the murderer in this case isn’t a religious authority, he’s a store clerk. Unless you have more examples, it’s a little bit of a leap to generalize from one murderer to an entire religious community. It’s like saying that devout Lutherans were harboring sociopaths because Ed Gein existed.

But Kletzky wasn’t sexually assaulted.

Seems like that would be hard to determine as all there is to go on is the word of the murderer and a body cut in small pieces and stuffed into a suitcase.

Yet. That could have been his original plan before he panicked and killed the boy.

Most insular religious communities are pedophile breeding grounds, unfortunately. The Amish, as well as Orthodox Jewish communities have issues with this.

The article says that investigators found no evidence of it. Until we learn more, I’m not going to jump to any conclusions.

This is such a bizarre and seemingly random case that I’m not going to assume anything yet.

MPB in Salt Lake:

Definitely not any official opposition, though I don’t know that say it’s outright support either.

miss elizabeth:

“Pedophile Breeding grounds”? Cite, please. Show us that there are (per capita) more pedophiles amongst Amish or Orthodox Jews or any “insular religious group” that’s not an out-and-out personality cult than there are in the general Amercian population.

Here is Levi Aron’s statement to the police. They edited it a bit to take out the really graphic parts. So he’s claiming:

-Leiby asked for a ride to a Judaica book store, then said he didn’t know where he wanted to go
-Aron took him to a wedding in Monsey and he was OK with this
-Leiby was perfectly happy to stay in his house and watch TV through lunch the next day
-when he saw everyone looking for the kid, he panicked and didn’t know how to give him back so he suffocated him with a towel at lunchtime

And then, after he’s described cutting the boy into pieces:

I’m thinking sociopath now. This all has to be a bald-faced lie. I mean, no matter how sheltered and naive Leiby was, he would never have agreed to be driven to Monsey and back before going home. And he wouldn’t have willingly fallen asleep in that guy’s house for hours knowing that he was lost and his family was probably in a panic. The police think he was tied up. Does this loon actually think anyone will believe this?

Amish:
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

http://aboutamish.blogspot.com/2010/09/sexual-abuse-among-amish_08.html

Jewish:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/windowsanddoors/2009/10/sexual-abuse-in-the-jewish-com.html
http://www.jpsych.com/abuse.html

That is what I got right away from googling “abuse in amish [orthodox] communities”. It’s a fairly well known phenomenon. Obviously hard numbers are difficult to find, because the problem is that the community is insular and shields the predators. Or did; these things seem to be improving, especially in the Orthodox communities.

I was in no way trying to smear your faith, or any faith, by my comment. It’s a by-product of living a separate existence, in many ways. I do think religion (as a whole) contributes in some ways, but I wasn’t trying to start a debate. I was trying to answer a question by another poster.

Also, a wedding is a pretty public affair. With all the publicity this generated - both before and after the kid was killed - it’s inconceivable that no one would have come forth by now to say they saw the kid with this guy at the wedding, had he actually been there.

If you don’t have hard numbers, then what do you have?

I should note, BTW, that the NYT article - one of your own cites - says

The rest is just anecdotes and speculation.