First of all, I suspect that even guys who are 100% straight check each other out when given the opportunity. They just develop very good peripheral vision, just like us gays. Think back to locker rooms you’ve been in. Who were the guys with big dicks? Can you honestly say you never looked . . . or it wasn’t a topic of discussion among you? Am I right?
Secondly, about the possibility of assault: Realistically, what do you think is the chance that a gay guy is going to jump you, physically overpower you, pin you to the floor and take your precious virginity? Do you see how asinine that is? Are you so insecure of your masculinity that you think you can’t defend yourself when you need to? Are you, in fact, a “97-pound weakling” who would just cry uncle and give in? And besides . . . I have enough sex in my life that I don’t need to overpower and rape a straight guy. Get real.
I don 't think it’s about victimization or fear, it’s about comfort. When your in a locker with a bunch of straight guys, sex is not on the mind. It’s a break from the rest of the day. (; )) I don’t think is a big problem, and I didn’t see any solution to it. I will say that when I moved to a new town once and was looking for a gym to join, unbeknownst to me, I ventured into one and got a tour that was like 100% gay. That made me very uncomfortable and found a gym more to my liking. But the fact is that I’m sure that there have been gay/bi guys in the gyms I’ve belonged to, and it never bothered me. To be honest, though, I think part of the reason is that the general vibe was very heterosexual and there was no way and line would be crossed. I also wouldn’t want women in the locker room. That’s time I don’t want to have to deal with any sexual or attraction issues. I just don’t even want them on the table.
Locker rooms full of straight men are the gayest places there are. Towel snapping, jokes, play fights… granted, that’s probably not true of a gym full of strangers.
FYI, to search this website using Google, add “site:boards.straightdope.com” (without quotes) to the search words. It beats the built-in search on most forums.
The issue is about a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
There are really two questions here. One is why do we do and feel how we do, and that’s worth talking about, but a lot of it is history and socialization. The other is what should we do, and IMHO nothing needs being done. I certainly wouldn’t want to regulate locker rooms to require individual privacy; I’d rather let the free market sort that out.
Frankly, I’m not even cool with segregating locker rooms and bathrooms by sex. What they should be segregated by, as mentioned in this thread, is desire for privacy. Meaning, you have some changing stalls, and curtains on the showers, basically. If you don’t care about that stuff (I’m pretty modest, and I don’t care about being partially naked in the locker room for a few minutes before I get dressed), you can use the less private areas.
I have used coed locker rooms, coed bathrooms and coed showers. I can’t believe segregating those areas by sex is considered necessary by anyone. Further segregation by sexual orientation would be ridiculous, and the mere thought highlights the absurdity of the current status quo. How about we break down barriers, rather than erect them? People are people.
I’m at work and I don’t want to google “coed showers” for obvious reasons. Can you explain how this works? Do men and women use these at the same time and effectively walk around half dressed or fully naked? Where exactly does this take place?
I can’t believe an adult living in this reality can say this seriously.
No, we didn’t talk about other straight men looking at each other. If you want, I’ll bring it up the next time. Yes, I’m sure we all sneak peaks. I’m personally not worried about being a victim of assault. I don’t know if you missed it, but I personally don’t care about being in the locker room with homosexuals. The thing that I’m hung up on is why we have separate changing rooms for men and for women, and why. How does it differ for homosexuals? If people have this idea that women can’t defend themselves but ALL men can… well I just don’t buy that.
Like I said, my main concern is people being objectified. If you think it’s only a problem for women, and men shouldn’t worry about it, I don’t buy that either. I was asked if I were in a woman’s locker room, if I would check out other women. I would say no. I’m sure most men would. I think I would be mortified if I were naked in front of strange women. Even if I was welcome in there.
Look. I’m NOT trying to insult anyone. I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad. I really would love to live in a world where people can be happy with who they are and comfortable around anyone.
I understand why you’re upset with me. Just know that I’m trying to see every side to this issue. I’m sorry I’m stuck in this spot where I don’t think I can give my friends a GOOD reason for thinking about this differently.
Why are private shower stalls out of the question? I mean, for stadiums and such?
Camping trips with burners. Basically, a local regional Burning Man event. Yes, that’s exactly how it works. People walk around naked if they want to, or if not, they act like regular gym patrons, wearing towels and trying to get dressed discreetly.
The point is that sex is a red herring here. People who are private don’t care if it’s women or men who are watching them get dressed, and people who don’t mind getting dressed in public don’t mind either way.
Are there really people who are perfectly okay with a bunch of strange dudes watching them shower, but as soon as a woman shows up, it’s unbearable? No, the divide here is between those who would rather not shower, dress and use the restroom in public, regardless of the gender of people nearby, and those who don’t care either way.
Well, sure. OTOH, you’re objectified every day. People walking by you, men and women, gay and straight, young and old, are judging you. Evaluating you as a sexual being. Most of the time dismissing you. (Sorry, that sounds insulting, but it’s not meant to be; most of us just don’t give a shit about most everyone else.)
The locker room is no different. Every time you’ve shared a locker room with other men, you’ve been objectified. You’ve been evaluated as a sexual object. By the closeted gay guys you’ve been there with, by the closeted bi guys, by the straight guys.
When you don’t know it’s happening, does it bother you?
Throw an open gay or bi guy into the mix, and suddenly it’s awkward for you. Why? I think I have an idea:
It sounds like you have the idea that “most men” would ogle naked women in a coed locker room (which, don’t get me wrong, is likely true), and therefore that most gay men would ogle naked men in a same-sex locker room.
They might. But they already are, and you haven’t noticed or been bothered by it so far.
And that might get to the heart of it. I respectfully submit that you are not concerned with being objectified so much as being judged and found wanting.
That’s not your fault, particularly. We’re all victims of our cultural programming, and it’s frustrating. Our societal messaging about sex, sexuality, nudity, and privacy are deeply convoluted and confusing. At the end of the day, “It just makes me uncomfortable” is as valid as anything else. But I’m a psych nerd, and love to unpick what makes us tick.
I’m still working on my caffeine load this morning, so I’m rambling a bit. But in a nutshell, I think it boils down to this: your friends, like most of us, are uncomfortable about sex, sexuality, and nudity. They’ve been programmed to be. It’s not their fault, necessarily, and when I use the term “homophobia” I don’t mean to suggest evil intent. But when we end up with “no open queers in the locker room is fine, any open queer is squicky,” then the only variable is “open queer.”
There is no concrete fear to point to; it certainly sounds like they aren’t afraid that a gay guy will suddenly turn into ButtSexRapeMonster [sup]TM[/sup]. And the odds are low that they’ve ever actually been propositioned, or harassed–or ever will be.
But men are pigs, and we’re well-programmed to be lecherous and disgusting. Straight guys know that they’d be inclined toward being pigs in front of naked women, so they assume that gay guys would be pigs in front of naked guys.
That obviously carries with it a bunch of flawed assumptions, but . . . I wonder if the idea of an open queer guy in the locker room is uncomfortable because it makes straight guys confront their own piggishness.
Doc, I agree with your post, with one nitpick: Yeah, there really are guys who are perfectly comfortable wandering around starkers in the locker room with other men, but would turn into wilting flowers if a woman showed up. And same for women.
I don’t think it’s everyone, certainly, and I don’t want to minimize your important point that perceptions of comfort and privacy are really at the core of things. But yeah, they’re out there. (I do think it’s mostly older guys; anecdotally, fewer and fewer younger men have been steeped in the full dong-out locker room experience.)
Just curious, how do you know that guy sneaking a peek at you is straight and how is that different from him possibly being gay? (not questioning your motives or anything here, just honestly curious)
My college dorm had a common bathroom/shower room on the floor. Open shower wtih 5 or 6 shower heads. Men and women could (and would) use at anytime. It was certainly different. I guess we were trying to make a statement. On one hand, it was not completely comfortable, on the other hand, you get used to it.
I’m wondering if this isn’t the solution. It probably isn’t culturally acceptable in North America yet, but eventually.
After all, it takes getting used to going naked in front of any strangers. It’s a reasonable step to getting used to going naked in front of strangers of the opposite sex. Other cultures appear to do it okay.
People from such cultures, does it create any issues?
I HATE when people say “men are pigs” because I personally don’t feel like a “pig”. But yes, I at least think that most men can be “pigs”. I know my male friends can be pigs… and I really hate it. I usually speak up about it too.
When I hear about gay men checking out other men in the showers, I don’t know. It wouldn’t bother me, but if it bothers some men, I don’t think that’s their fault. I really don’t mind being objectified at all.
You’re probably right though. Men know how other men can be. Apparently, women can be the same way. (nearwildheaven’s post suggests that).
Point is basically that odds are you’ll never know if the guy is thinking “I wish I could get my arms to look like that” or “damn, I’d nail him in a New York minute”. Then again, both could easily be true even if he is gay.
I’m not sure. It seems like a solution in search of a problem. The ways things have been in North America over my lifetime seem to work pretty well (with the rare exception of a few straight guys worried about catching the gay.) It would be nice to live in a world where people didn’t get so anxious about naked bodies, but I don’t think we need impose it or worry if it doesn’t’ happen.
Fair. Though I remember a contentious thread about how the transgendered community handled this divide.
I’m thinking more in terms of long-term cultural change in attitudes.
After all, stuff has changed immensely in my lifetime. Considering the needs (or even existence) of non-straight or transgendered people was simply not done when I was a kid.
Okay, this has been mentioned a couple of times now and I have to ask because no-one has yet. WTF is it with the stadium example and who the hell showers in a stadium except for professional athletes? And is all this about gay ball players in pro team locker rooms?
