Let’s be very clear here. If you are very self conscious and don’t like showering in an open shower setting , then you may be far too modest for public venues like most health clubs. However, if you are okay showering among same sex strangers UNLESS they happen to be gay, then you might be a homophobe. Either way, you should probably shower at home.
Most women in the dating world would probably tell you that they wish men were just a little gynophobic. If for no other reason than there would be far less unsolicited dick shots sent to them.
Well, as a hypothetical gay man, I also demand to “not be checked out” by other gay men, so I demand a private locker room everywhere I go, since I certainly can’t get changed with other gay men who are going to oogle my bits!
Slightly more seriously, though, when you think about it, it comes down to what Miller said:
. . . the issue is power/gender dynamics between men and women. Women are easily and often victimized, taken advantage of, and dominated specifically because of their gender (note: I am not saying this is because women are weak or anything like that, just observing a cultural phenomenon without delving into the whys and wherefores). It makes a lot of sense to provide a place for women to change their clothes in an environment free of those gender issues.
There is no gender oppression/victimization of straight men by gay men. Firstly, because they’re all men, and secondly, because in our society straight men wield more power than gay men.
It’s not about being “objectified,” it’s about being/feeling safe from those who are more powerful than you, in a situation (being nude) when we often feel the most vulnerable.
I guess you already do aready shower with heterosexuals. I like that you said that you “might” be a homophobe. Yes, you very well might be. I don’t think my friends are homophobes though.
I really came in here hoping that there would be some argument that I haven’t already thought of. I’m serious. I could never know how it feels to be you. I really don’t want anyone to feel discriminated against. It really bothers me that I still haven’t been convinced that you’re right.
Well, thanks for that, I guess. But I’m straight. Been that way all my life. Not even the least bit curious.
Well, neither do I. My best friend of over 25 years is gay. He’s a great guy and a great friend. I hate that he has to deal with this kind of crap. I suppose this is why I feel as strongly as I do about it.
At least you’re thinking about it. It’s a good place to start.
Look… I’m beat from this back-and-forth. To be honest, I REALLY don’t care as much as it might sound like I do. I mean, I care about people’s feelings, but the way things are now doesn’t bother me as much as it would seem. I’m just trying to say that I REALLY DO understand where my friends are coming from.
Men can feel vulnerable and objectified too. I think that’s one of the reasons why I can’t seem to shake this idea that it might be hard for some people to feel weird being nude around someone who MIGHT be checking you out. I doubt most homosexuals even do that. I’ve heard of three homosexuals that check out men in the locker room. It WAS two, but then I was shown a link to a thread on Straight Dope where a man admitted to checking out other men. So… it does happen I guess.
Sorry. When you said “We already do.” I thought you meant, “We homosexuals already shower with heterosexuals.” But you meant, “we already do allow them to”.
Thanks also for understanding that I thinking about this stuff…
If you look at past theads of mine, you’ll see that I normaly don’t get this far in an argument without say; “OK, you guys are right, and I’m wrong.”
My mind is ALWAYS open… or at least I would like to think it is. Don’t think I’ve given up on your side of the argument yet.
Personally, I feel like I have to go more out of my way to avoid looking at or talking to guys in the locker room because I never know when I’ll be accused of ‘checking them out’.
Sorry you’re beat from the back-and-forth. I was trying to add something new that I hadn’t quite seen yet in the conversation; my intent was just to put in a different perspective, not to attack you or your friends.
My point was that there’s a world of difference between me (hetero male) feeling vulnerable, and women actually being vulnerable because of their gender. In our society, women are still in many ways at the mercy of men, and play second fiddle to men all the time, just because of their gender (not their sexuality).
There is a very practical nature of women’s concerns about their safety wrt getting nude among strangers that does not exist for men. Yes, any man can be victimized by another man (or woman), but you’re not putting him in a position of weakness by letting gay men into the men’s locker room. You put women in a position of weakness by letting men into the women’s locker room.
(I realize this is coming out very “oh, poor helpless women can’t be strong like us men,” but I hope everyone can see past my lack of eloquence and tact to get my point. I hope!)
Someone being uncomfortable, feeling vulnerable or that they might be objectified is not a sane, mature reason to adjust behaviors or take action, because this is all their problem in their head. Your friends are imagining a situation, not dealing with a reality. Separating locker rooms by sexual preference in that case makes as much sense as adding meteor shielding because someone thinks rocks may fall from space and hit them while they’re naked.
If gay men and women suddenly - after thousands of years - become an overt issue to deal with in locker rooms, that’s the time to start looking for solutions. You know, when there’s actually a problem.
Right now, this is just their homophobia manifesting, and despite you not thinking that’s what it is, that’s what it is. All that’s missing is the quote “I’ve got no problems with homosexuals generally - why, one of my friends is gay.”
It’s not your fault I’m sick of the back-and-fourth my friend.
And I didn’t take it as an attack at all.
I don’t know if I agree with you, but I really do value your input. Right now I’m too tired to really think about this anymore for today. I hope people continue to talk about this, because I would really like to change my mind. Later tonight, or tomorrow I’ll see if anyone’s posted anything here.
There was a lesbian gym teacher at my high school (no, this wasn’t a cliche; she really was) and she would ogle girls in the locker room before and after class. We changed VERY rapidly, with our backs turned, if she was supervising.
:mad:
I’m sure there were other lesbians in the room with me; didn’t matter then and wouldn’t now. I also had a classmate (although I don’t recall if we shared a gym class) who turned out to be transgendered. He was featured in a Discovery Channel program a while back; when he held up his HS graduation picture, I nearly fell off the couch. I had absolutely no idea.
Who do you think has more to fear in a locker room, the gay guys surrounded by paranoid straight dudes or the straight dudes who might be ogled? Then again, maybe if it’s a health club the straight guy is in the minority…
I wonder about the psychology of guys who flip their shit at the prospect of being checked out by gay dudes. Do they stop ogling women, or at least try to put a lid on it? Ya know, since they realize how uncomfortable it is to have a guy measuring you up? Gonna guess not.
The important thing to realize about gay guys is they’re guys. Of course they’re gonna check that out. You telling me if an average straight guy was somehow allowed to change in the women’s locker he wouldn’t take in some sidelong glances?
You know, everyone. There are both men and women who are attracted to both genders. They are called bisexuals. Try substituting bisexual for gay in all of the above posts.
This is, I think, evidence both of male privilege and of victimization culture.
When you talk about how men can feel objectified too, equating being checked out once in awhile by a gay dude with a pervasive culture that treats women’s bodies as receptacles for sexual pleasure, you’re showing some privilege. That’s not, as far as I can tell, anything like what a woman living in our culture experiences as objectification; the two aren’t within leagues of one another.
What it shows is the pretty common phenomenon of straight (often white, often relatively wealthy) dudes wanting to get in on the victimization game, thinking that there’s some sort of cachet to it, so they write a story in which they, the poor straight dude, is victimized by the lecherous gay dude who KEEPS LOOKING AT THEIR WEEWEE.
No, my friend. That’s not victimization, and straight dudes whose weewees are seen by gay men aren’t oppressed, victimized, attacked, or anything like.
I actually don’t think the threat of sexual assault factors into this discussion much.
If I, as a man, were to go into the women’s changing room, they women wouldn’t be freaked out because they think I’m going to sexually assault them, or even ogle them. They would object because they don’t want me seeing them naked. It plays into a sense of security, comfort, and perceived peace of mind. As a man, I am easily identified as someone who will see their bodies and judge their bodies, and regardless of what I think, it’s just something they don’t want to have swimming around in their head as they change. If I were a lesbian though, it’s essentially whatever they don’t know won’t hurt them so no harm no foul.
Now if you’re the type of guy who’s worried that gay guys are looking at your dick, know that straight guys could potentially be looking at your dick too and instead of judging it from a sexual vantage, they could be judging it from a comparative vantage. Petergazing is not intrinsically a homosexual activity. In fact, it’s practically unavoidable at some gyms.
Long story short, if you’re burning calories worrying about your genitalia and who’s looking at it, it’s not an issue about equality, gender, or homophobia. It’s an issue of your own insecurities.
