Human-agaainst-human cruelty aside, Adven, you need to remember that treating animals with the same kind of respect afforded to humans is seen as pretty loony in a lot of the world. I seriously doubt that the ASIANS (“oriental” refers only to things, not people, thanks very much) you saw on your television set were not thinking “I am really enjoying watching this animal die.” More likely, they were simply thinking about how good it would taste. Do you consider a carrot’s feelings before you chop it up and put it in a salad? A lot of the world sees animals the same way. To assume that treating animals in these ways implies cruelty is simple ethnocentrism.
As far as your other points…I think they’ve been pretty well covered by other folks on this thread. I’d really hate to call you a raging idiot, because it’s not very polite and everyone makes mistakes.
But I guess you really are, after all. It would have been one thing if your post had come on like “have you guys noticed this? Am I crazy, or…do Asians have more cruel tendencies than other races?”
But instead you tried to make your post sound enlightened, informed, and scientific. And it wasn’t. Humility! Here is one thing you can learn from the Japanese.
Speaking of the Japanese (they are a subject which occupies my mind much of the time), someone else on this board mentioned how well Asian cultures treat their elders. In my experience (and those holding differing experiences are welcome to rebuke me…not that I have to ask) assuming that Asian cultures treat their elderly with respect is kind of like a Chinese guy reading the ten commandments and saying “gosh, those Christians all honor their fathers and mothers! What a great culture!”
There is plenty of disrespect and neglect of the elderly in Japan, and as I feel this has more to do with humanity in general than specific cultures, I’m going to stick my neck out and say that the situation probably doesn’t change that much throughout the rest of Asia. I don’t know what a comparison between, for example, the U.S. and China would reveal as far as actual numbers, but I don’t see that the elderly are treated with so much more respect here than they are in “the West.”
Yes, Caucasians do have an extermely violent history. There’s hardly been a time where there wasn’t at least one war in Europe.
I wasn’t trying to imply that Europe was the most violent place, merely showing the OP that cultures other than Asian ones also have a very bloody history. Since I’m more familiar with European history than that of Africa or Pre-Colombian America, I chose examples from Europe.
As for the “at least one war” statement, that’s a situation hardly confined to Europe. I’m sure that a study of African or American Indian or Asian history will reveal the same. Just because some wars are relatively small, confined ones rather than continent-wide battles doesn’t mean there’s no war going on.
Where are you getting this stuff? To be up-front about my personal bias, my wife is Asian. Thai, to be exact, and I’ve never met a person less likely to hurt an animal or indeed any other living thing. She’s a Buddhist. When I manage to catch some fish though, she WILL whack them on the head, scale and gut them, and then fry them up, usually with some VERY nice spices. Somehow I can’t see that as being cruel though, it’s just what you have to do for lunch.
The bit about sticking the monkey’s head through the table and then eating his brain is just flat out strange. I’m living in the Arab world at the moment and have travelled all over Asia since 1982 and have NEVER come across this. I have no idea where it comes from unless it’s the Indiana Jones movie mentioned earlier.
As far as “the torturous caning thing” goes, my understanding is that this is more humiliation than pain. Anyone care to either squash me or back me up on that one? The last case of this I heard of was some American kid got busted for spray-painting graffiti on people’s cars. In that particular case, my sympathy was everything it should be. Taken as a whole, I’m not too worried about the “yellow peril.” LOL Most of the Asians I’ve met, many being my in-laws do seem a bit more pragmatic about things and are more aware than the average American that food in it’s initial state does NOT come with cellophane wrapping. S Aside from that I don’t see a lot of difference.
Kyomera.
I can’t speak about Japan but I have noticed a lot more respect for elders in Thailand as compared to the US. This is generally outside the larger cities though so maybe either technical progress or some kind of cultural contamination changes this in the cities. The Thais listen to the older generation more. They don’t necessarily FOLLOW the advice but they almost always listen. S
I did consider the historical records of pre-1900s USA, where without benefit of pain relievers, which we all grew up with, people grew up accepting pain on all levels as a form of life. This would have affected their view on how they treated each other as well as animals. They man who had his bladder stones removed by having his groin slit open while servants held him down, the surgeon opening his urinary bladder, removing the stone by hand, then sewing him back up (Eagle In The Sky – a rare, rare historically correct fictional work about a doctor in the 1700s, printed in around the 1920s, which I own a copy of), who survived would not be very empathetic to the pain of an animal nor the pain of another injured person.
Nor would a person having his abscessed tooth yanked out without pain killer via striking it first with a mallet and chisel, then pulled with pliers while the dentist knelt on his chest and assistants held him down (Early Dental Techniques Circa 1701 - 1800), would not develop a pain empathetic personality. (No wonder so many old photographs show people as looking either pissed or humorless.)
But, times have changed through better techniques, education, medical discoveries and world wide communication, though (a little thinking aloud here) have the attitude changes brought on by these reached into third world general populations? It still makes me wonder how a certain section of the global population can contain the apparently highest level of deliberate cruelty.
Aestivalis
Uh – yeah! Especially since you have the current knowledge, benefits of modern technology, influence of general society, and availability of unavoidable resources like around 100 Animal Rights Groups. Beating a fish to death after catching it is probably less traumatic than dropping it in the bottom of the boat to smother. Even so, I would think that there are certain ‘acceptable’ levels concerning food catching. Like, no ice, so the fish die in the bottom of the boat or in a bucket of water, but one does not sit and hack off fillets while it dies – though I have observed this, cook it alive, dig out it’s eyes or torture it as long as possible.
Probably not, but I don’t reckon I’d torture the beast until it expired. I know determined hunters that will kill just about anything below the level of a human and a few, having been in Vietnam, profess to not minding killing even humans but all prefer to kill quickly and as painlessly as possible, even those using arrows.
Food is food. Letting food suffer is inhumane, it displays lack of empathy. Even kids, who torture critters like frogs when young usually stop when they realize that the victim actually feels pain. Those not stopping, who continue to enjoy inflicting pain, criminologists will tell you, turn into wife beaters, serial killers and murderers with lack of empathy towards any living thing.
It takes little to kill a definned shark, and definning them then letting them go seems mot predominate among Orientals while generally frowned on by other nations. So is killing animals just for certain glands or body parts superstitiously believed to give the consumer various powers or energies. I intensely dislike sharks, but if I have to kill one, I do it quickly.
My tackle box holds a small gun used for this purpose.
ITR champion
Yeah, agreed, buy by now with wide spread information, it should be lower, in my opinion.
Kyomara
At the bottom of the initial post, I ask:
I did not realize that bowing and scraping was needed when asking for an opinion.
Aside from being insulted by several posters, I’ve read interesting responses to my questions which have made me rethink my original conclusions. Genetics, after all, might not play the major role that I had suspected, but culture would, even if I, as a person, find it somewhat surprising.
Yet, considering these facts, it’s pretty clear that certain areas did not go through major cultural changes or get exposed to other cultures until some time after WW2, which isn’t enough time for there to be alterations in basic beliefs.
Now, I wonder if it is possible to debate a subject on the SDMB without provoking name calling and insults. Perhaps some posters are ‘genetically’ inclined just to be bitchy.
(I’d like to mention that the Monkey Brain incident was brought to my attention through an article read over 10 years ago, and, on occasion, I’ve read several reports of it happening.)
Adventurious82, you have not yet replied to any of the questions which I have posted for you. I certainly hope that it is not because you feel I am one of the posters who have insulted you. I have made every attempt to state my opinions politely, and have refrained from mocking you at every oppurtunity.
Allow me to state my opinion here. I believe that the thesis you have presented is wrong. I believe it is wrong in the sense that I do not see that the residents of Asia are any more cruel than the residents of any other continent. I also believe it is wrong by semantics. You are attempting to make a judgement about “orientals” and “races”, words whose descriptive value I feel to be minimal.
I have specific questions for you regarding how your idea was formed, and how you plan to justify your idea. Some of these are about things I disagree with, and wish to find out more so I can see why your opinion differs from my own. Others are requests for more information in those instances where you make claims without presenting sufficient evidence. If you believe your theory to be sound, then surely you can answer my questions. If you object to any of these questions, please tell me why you feel the question is unreasonable.
First, I will deal with your use of language. I ask you again, how is it that you define “oriental”? Is it a geographic, national, genetic or cultural definition? Why do you feel that it is possible to discuss “orientals” as a coherent population?
It seems to me that Asia contains a large number of countries, ethnicities, and cultures. I personally would not make sweeping generalizations which equate these different populations. Do you feel justified in doing so? Why or why not?
Next, I wish to deal with the question of evidence. Most of the examples of “oriental cruelty” you have provided so far have been anecdotal in nature. A few, such as the “monkey brains” bit, seem to be spurious in nature. What you have not provided is any evidence which shows how widespread these phenomena are in Asian culture. Nor have you provided any relevant comparisons with other “races”.
Do you feel that it is possible to support your thesis without this much information? If so, how much information do you believe is needed before you can reliably claim that “orientals are the cruelest race”?
As several posters have pointed out, for every cruel thing done by an Asian person it is possible to point out an equally cruel thing done by a non-Asian person. Is this the direction in which you would prefer for this dialogue to proceed? If not, by what standards may an act of cruelty be submitted as evidence, either for or against your case?
Much of the evidence of “oriental cruelty” that you have given has to do with the preparation of food. I have several points to make regarding this. Is it accurate to use food preparation techniques as an indicator to measure a population’s inherent cruelty? Do you have any data to show where and how often these violent methods of food preparation are practiced? As a resident of Korea, I can assure you that the slaughtering of livestock and fish takes place in much the same way as it does in rural Newfoundland. Does this make Korea an exception to your theory?
What about other possible indicators of cruelty, such as violent crime statistics, which might show many Asian nations as much more peaceful than the West? Does the cruelty of sushi chefs necessarily imply the cruelty of sushi consumers?
As an example of Western cruelty towards animals, consider the Canadian fur trade. Have changes in the fur industry been caused by a hightened sense of morality among trappers and breeders, or is it merely the result of government intervention and market pressure? What does this imply regarding the “cruelty level” of the general population?
You suggest that one of the reasons for lowered “cruelty levels” in the West is improved technology in medicene and communication. Is this idea historically defensible, or just a WAG on your part? I honestly don’t know, and hope you can fill in some of the details for me.
Your writing seems to suggest that you believe cultures progress inevitably towards some ultimate, ideal shape. In places, you seem to express that “orientals” may be cruel because their culture is less advanced than ours. Is this true of your beliefs? Could you elaborate upon this for me, please?
Like Collounsbury, I would need to know your source before regarding this claim as anything more than a myth.
You’re still totally ignoring the simple fact that “cruelty” just doesn’t mean the same thing in some cultures. Westerners think that they have taken some moral high road by treating their dinner with respect before they eat it. And to some cultures this is like naming your broccoli and saying a little prayer for it before you steam it. If you want to talk about cruelty to human beings, fire away. But your claim that their treatment of animals somehow implies cruelty just doesn’t hold up.
I might not have the greatest grasp of language in making myself clear, but the basics seem to be well enough in place to do the job. At the beginning of my post I stated ‘American Indian, White (or Caucasian), Black and Oriental.’
Oriental = Asian = anyone with the eyefold, skin hue, ancestry, general physical characteristics making up the typical classification of such a person. ie: Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese, Vietnamese and so on.
See above reply. I do, when wishing to make things simpler concerning a specific, general grouping of people. Yes, I do. See previous sentence.
If I had, there would have been no reason to bring the subject to open debate, now would there?
Considering that I come from a place where we have laws concerning the killing of livestock so as not to make it cruel and inhumane, the point is moot. In my own opinion, I judge a person by their response to the pain and suffering of a lessor creature above the level of a bug. The redneck who feeds kittens to his pitbulls to make them aggressive might be a cool guy to work with, a doting father and honest employee, but his lack of empathy towards pain and suffering indicates to me that he has potential to be dangerously uncaring. Those Cubans who keep getting arrested for illegal cock fights might be nice guys, but their blood lust for the pain and suffering of the birds they use, plus their often casual way of dumping a badly injured looser into the trash while alive indicates to me a lack of empathy which should be present in dealing with others.
If one observes the increase in the availability of knowledge in various advanced nations, the increase in technology which opens such nations up to global influence, fills in gaps in international social ignorance, encourages free thinking, greater understanding and wider communication, … well yeah. Every advanced nation has animal cruelty laws plus a decrease in casual animal cruelty as the population realizes animals feel pain.
Certain things, like the fur trade, smothered duck, duck and goose liver, are based in business, which, as we all know, does not mean such industries are concerned with the well being of anything except profit. A business, if it can get away with it, will happily sell a product which will kill the user in the name of profit and so long as there are buyers.
Since wider animal education has begun through scores of services and Animal Protection groups, thousands of people have realized that animals feel, respond to various ways of being treated and that certain previous ways of commercial ‘harvesting’ were cruel and unusual – like clubbing seals. Since then, the demand for real fur has dropped, more laws have been enacted to protect animals, even certain types of hunting traps have been outlawed in some areas, local governments have regulated the types of weapons used to prevent painful and lingering deaths of prey, and people are more considerate towards animals.
If you kill an animal for food, there is no need to torture it in the process. Snakes blood turns you on? Like a previous example, cut the head off and suck it dry. Quick, painless. Not hang the critter up by the neck in a steel wire loop, cut open the belly, fish around and pull out the main artery, nick it, drain it and leave the critter to slowly die in pain.
A being which ignores the pain of a creature with a brain or considers such pain irrelevant, in my opinion, is cruel. Something is missing, especially with the vast flow of knowledge today. Becoming inured to the actual pain of an animal means that person will probably have a lack of empathy towards humans. (Kind of like the Bataan Death march, the slow, torturous starvation/horrific treatment of the Jews who were going to be killed anyway (the local German civilians were kept deliberately ignorant, it has come out, concerning operations of the death camps because they might have protested), and Vlad, the Impaler.
Such general attitudes tend to cripple international cooperation. (See Castro, Hitler, Sadaam, the Boston Strangler, the Night Stalker, Mao Tesung, and so on.) They tend to get people killed also.
See above.
All cultures should be in a constant state of flux. A stagnant culture is a dead one. History has shown that cultures progress in leaps and bounds in areas of humanities, international relations, arts, philosophies, conservation, and global awareness once education is easily available to all. Restricting education or freedom of information has always failed. A culture in flux eventually abandons its antiquated ways, though not without resistance.
A civilization which, in my opinion, displays general concern for animals under its care, advances faster. It has been my experience that nations which treat its animals as unfeeling, nonentities usually treat not only their own people but those of other nationalities in similar ways.
Now, I did state that I had not considered cultural influences after another poster mentioned it, which I agree seems to fill the bill pretty well instead of genetics. Especially considering that China was cloistered and then in turmoil prior to the communist invasion, which then threw everything into even worse turmoil, screwed up all sorts of things that did not begin to settle down until after Mao croaked. Japan was in a restricted, regimented culture until WW2. Vietnam, Korea, Taiwan all were 3rd world nations, still mainly living in the 18th century.
Information, education, labor saving devices and world awareness were restricted to the general populace. So, even with modern freedoms in many areas, they are still handling traditional views all over the place. It’s been demonstrated that you can suddenly give a backward, restricted culture a whole bunch of information and technologies, and the basic person will use them, but still cling to traditional ideology.
A good example is here, where even up into the 70s, women were considered secondary citizens, people were still convinced that the space rockets punched holes in the atmosphere that caused the changes in weather.
At this point I would like all the Westerners out there to bow their heads and say a little prayer of thanks for the privilege of belonging to the most advanced, enlightened, humane culture ever to have existed on this planet. We are truly, truly blessed.
And what about the bugs, Adventurious82? Don’t they have feelings too?
I’m in Riyadh. You? In any event, I’m quite sure they don’t eat any monkey brains, living or dead, in the Arabian Gulf or North Africa. I’ve also never seen or heard of this in SE Asia.
Riyad? I divide my time between Cairo and Tunis. Have to say in all my overseas work and living, never heard, witnessed or otherwise had a hint of monkey brain eating.
But then I think we can all see where Adven is at. (Is the SDMB loon Award still open?)
*Perhaps the DEAD version seen in Indiana Jones, but the LIVE, SHRIEKING and KICKING version is alive and well in the PRC.
Being an animal rights campaigner, it galls me to encourage anyone, but –
The table has a hole in the center, with a vice-like clamp around it. A live, head-shaved, monkey is suspended from the clamp, and the waiter graciously CRACKS OPEN the skull. Actually, the monkey does not kick or shriek – I am told the he/she is anaesthetized before this. God should only hope so. I also believe the skull was “scored” or somehow pre-cut before arriving at the table; the waiter did not struggle too much with removing the cap.
Purists will eat it “straight”. For the rest of us, some sort of sauce was drizzled over it. Actually, I could not bring myself to even try it. On a plate, in a bowl, from a can…maybe…but not with the animal hanging limp beneath.
This is NOT by any means a COMMON dish, btw. There are a couple of specialty houses – perhaps only in the capital – and they are tremendously expensive. Like the US$ 2000 bowls of urine soup found elsewhere in the city.
I’m not even sure if you could get in on your own. The whole thing reeked of private club/back room casino/cigar-chompin’ dimly-lit den of who-knows-what. I was taken by some party politico types, putting to good use the sweat of the masses. Long live socialism!!*
*Not for the squeamish
She had told me earlier about her dad knowing cannibals. On the phone she said (do not pass this point if you are squeamish) he had also once been offered live monkey brains as an appetizer before a Far East feast.
“He was a farm boy from Iowa and he’d eaten hog brains and eggs when he was growing up,’’ she said. “But when they brought in the live monkeys and sliced off the tops of their skulls and urged people to eat, he said ‘Ralph’ off the balcony.’’
Small world, I told Stephanie. Just the day before a world traveler friend had told me about eating live monkey brains in Bangkok, in 1972. He had only taken one bite, but at least he hadn’t Ralphed.*
*hey,nobody has mentioned three hong kong delicacies:
~monkey brains: tie live monkey under table with circular opening in middle… and you cut open the head while the monkey is alive and eat the brains raw while the monkey is squirming and screaming underneath. takes the monkey anothr good 5 minutes before it loses consciousness.
~fried duck feet: you have the live duck standing in the frying pan, and you slowly sautee the feet with garlic sauce and ginger while the duck is still** alive…** supposedly makes the feet taste better than if you chop off the feet first, because then the feet get gorged with blood…
~soy sauce turtles: you keep the turtles as pets for a while, but instead of keeping them in water, you keep them in a brew of soy sauce and other herbs and spices… so that their meat is marinated with the spices already, and all their internal organs will have that nice sauce taste to it…
A group of law enforcement personnel, disguised as diners, visited a restaurant. The manager of the restaurant tried to persuade the group to eat living monkey’s brains, a meal valued at about RMB1,000. The manager said people who eat live monkey’s brains become wiser. The law enforcement personnel then showed their identification and the manager and the monkey were taken to the local public security bureau. The monkey has received treatment and the manager has been ordered to pay ten times the monkey’s value as a fine.*
*Snake soup (Hong Kong)
Snake is a popular food in Hong Kong, especially during the winter. You can drink warm snakes blood (I was not up to this) or you can have a piping hot snake soup with Chinese wine or brandy. This looked pretty innocent, so I tried it. The soup actually warms you up nicely in cold weather, although I think that has more to do with the brandy than the snake meat. If I had been told that it was chicken, I would have believed it – it tasted like chicken.
There are some dishes that you can get in Hong Kong/China that I have not tried, because I can’t bring myself to eat such things.** Amongst them are eating the brain of a live monkey (this is illegal, but if you know where to go, you can get it). I was going to describe the process in detail, but I think it would be very upsetting to read this, so I won’t. Suffice to say that the monkey suffers intensely before it dies, while people are picking its brains.** Other dishes that you can get in Hong Kong/China are Tiger’s penis, bear paw, and** fish that is fried so fast that the gills are still pumping and the mouth opening and closing while the rest of the fish is being sliced up in front of you.***
Want more links?
Adventurious82, I must commend you on one thing. You’re keeping an open mind. There have been times in this debate that you’ve said “I didn’t know that.” Or “Thanks for the info.” and it’s helped to shape your opinion. Unlike many who come in with a strong premise, you’re at least willing to keep your options open and that, I believe, is an admirable trait.
That said, I think you’re wrong. First, you’re wrong in making your OP so blatantly confrontational. What was that black comment about? Were we supposed to hear the question “who is the most inherently cruel race?” and suddenly think black? Were we to hear of sharks being definned and dumped alive back in the water, of snakes wriggling on hooks, and automatically think black? Why do you assume that we would?
Secondly, you’re wrong in thinking that Korea is the same as Vietnam is the same as Thailand. They might all, outwardly, have basically the same features, but their language is different, their attitudes are different, their entire culture and history are vastly different. Back in the 1600s, Japan and China wouldn’t even trade with one another. It took the Spanish, as an intermediary, to start negotiations for certain goods. Today, they have entirely different sets of government and technological levels. You’d think that if they were one true race they’d be on the same plane as one another.
Now, you can consider the torturing of animals to be cruel. Indeed, I do too. But to look at that criteria in a vacuum is wrong.
There’s no doubt that the Japanese look at our crime rate, our violent assault rate, our MURDER rate, and shake their heads. They look at our blase attitude towards work and consider themselves more advanced than we. Their sense of honor gives them reason to not harm fellow human.
Now, let’s ignore the Nazis for a moment. Stalin killed 20 million of his fellow citizens. The Irish and the English have been feuding for centuries, killing innocents in their struggle. Numerous African leaders continue to fight amonst themselves, depriving their citizens of food or even the basic help from outside sources (UN, Red Cross, um…Sally Struthers).
And, unless I missed it somewhere, I’m surprised that you’re ignoring the biggest argument in favor of your theory: the forced abortions of the Chinese as a means to population control.
Basically, there are a long list of inhumanities that have been committed and are being committed across the globe. For you to narrow your parameters to animal cruelty is quite shortsited.
Thank you for finally taking the time to answer my questions.
When I asked about your use of the term “oriental” and “race”, you restated that you were doing so to make things more manageable. Unfortunately, this does not deal with the question of whether or not such a grouping is valid. You say that “the basics seem to be well enough in place to do the job”; I hope you realize that this is merely a statement of opinion, and does not count as evidence to support your position. I must ask you again, hopefully using clearer language this time: How do you justify the racial schema set up in your OP? Do you have any evidence which suggests the four racial groups listed in your OP are distinct entities, or that your use of this terminology contains any descriptive value?
Allow me to provide an example for you, in case you do not understand what I am asking for. Suppose that instead of categorizing people based upon their skin color, we wanted to formulate a theory about human cruelty based upon which month people were born in. Can delineating the human race in this way provide us with any useful information? Is this method of doing things any less valid than your own?
Three quarters of the qualifiers you used in your definition of “oriental” are physical traits. So, do you feel that your conclusions can apply to all “orientals”? Is there a difference between “orientals” living in Asia and those living on other continents? What about “orientals” who were adopted and raised by members of other “races”?
Your evidence for “oriental cruelty” consists mainly of animal rights issues. May I ask what your source is regarding the nature and frequency of cruelty against animals in Asia? For some reason, you brushed off my question about this earlier. Is frequency important to your analysis? Does it matter whether animals are treated badly by a small segment of the population or by most everyone?
Without information on frequency and distribution, I cannot accept your anecdotes about cruelty practiced by “oriental” people towards food animals as evidence to support your thesis. At best, the anecdotes could be interpreted as rare or bizarre events. At worst, one would have to judge that many of your stories are completely apocryphal.
Next, how much do you know regarding the activities of animal rights organizations within Asia? Several posters have accused you of ethnocentrism in regard to your equating animal rights with general cruelty. It has been stated that in many cultures, food animals are not thought of as feeling pain. You have responded that in this modern age any industrialized country should be able to keep up with Western standards. You have made numerous claims about the relative power of animal welfare laws in Asia and elsewhere; if you wish to present a convincing case, now is the time to provide cites documenting your claim that said laws are less prevalent in Asia than they are on other continents. Right now, I’m afraid it’s just your say-so, and like the “monkey brains” issue I can’t accept it as likely without some corroborating evidence.
As a side note, your explinations of how cultures “advance” and the correlation between technology and animal rights laws were also, IMO, heavy on opinion and low on evidence. The problem may just be that you did not write as clearly as was needed. Can you cite a sociologist or historian who advocates either of these positions?
Thank you for the link which documents the “monkey brains” story. According to that page, the home of the practice is a village in China, not in the middle east or in France as was previously thought. Unfortunately, the source of this article is not entirely clear… certain posters on this board may use that fact to question its authenticity. Also, the act of eating the brains from a still-living monkey is described in the article, but merely as an anecdote. It is not witnessed by the author, so IMO there is still no hard evidence of that practice ever occuring.
If the thesis you wished to develop was that certain Asian countries do not have strict enough animal welfare laws, I think you could develop that. This would require some research into the current state of said laws in Asia, the activities of animal rights organizations in the area, and comparison with relevant laws in other countries.
However, the thesis you wish to develop is that “orientals” are the cruelest “race”. You agree with me that you have not provided sufficient evidence to support this claim. I can’t claim to believe that you ever will get enough evidence, since I can’t claim to believe that your theory is worth the electrons it’s printed on.
I agree with you that a lack of empathy towards animals can imply an overall lack of empathy. However, I believe intent is an important consideration. If a person does cruel things to an animal out of ignorance for its suffering, that doesn’t imply a lack of empathy so much as a person who does cruel things to an animal just to watch its agony. I think most people would agree that in this case, the second person is far crueler than the first.
It is my opinion that the difference in culture between Asia and North America limits the usefulness of discussing animal rights issues in a thread about general cruelty. Yes, it’s true, being mean to animals may imply a lack of empathy… but if there truly is a lack of empathy, rather than ignorance, surely it must be expressed in other ways. You need some person to person cruelty evidence.
Earlier on, you mentioned something about “oriental” soldiers killing unarmed civilians without remorse, but seem to have forgotten that when I requested a cite. In your most recent post you mention the “Bataan Death March”; I’m afraid that for the life of me I can’t make sense of what you’re talking about, unless of course there were two “Bataan Death Marches” in WW2. There were neither Jews nor Germans in the death march which I am familiar with.
Hey Adventurious. I see that you’ve compiled a whole page of links to sites which document the “monkey brain” story. I have a few comments to make regarding them…
First, I’m not personally sure that I can accept the authenticity of all of these accounts. Most of them come from second hand sources, i.e. “my friend told me…”. If you’re familiar with the study of urban legends, the acronym FOAF must be familiar to you- “friend of a friend”. Stories are often attributed to a supposedly reliable source, quite often the archetypical friend-of-a-friend, and passed off as true. I am therefore quite sceptical regarding stories of this nature, unless there is some compelling evidence to suggest it is true.
If you are not familiar with urban legends, I strongly reccomend a visit to the Snopes web site. Or even better, go to your local library and find a good book on the subject.
Secondly, it seems that several of the sources you are quoting are animal rights activists. While there’s nothing wrong with that in itself, it’s often the case that people with ideological affiliations are willing to bend the truth to support their case. Ideally, a first-person account of the “monkey brains” story would come from a more-or-less neutral source.
Finally, most of the accounts are in agreement about one point- eating the brains of living monkeys as described in the story is an illegal act. Surely, then, this cannot be used as evidence of cruelty in the population at large. If you wish to use this as evidence, it may easily be countered by unusual vices engaged in by North Americans, such as serial killing. That was just the first one that came to mind. I’m sure that with a little snooping around the web I could find more examples of sick and twisted things some caucasians do for pleasure.
In any case, thank you very much for the information you have provided.
I’ll note that
(1) none of these stories seem terribly reliable, but Pyhro has noted that also
(2) you insisted on ‘arab’ – these are all far east.
(3) the credibility of your already absurd argument is not improved by an inability to distinguish two different regions of the globe unless
(4) your definition of ‘Oriental’ includes the Middle East and India
(5) in which case it is simply incoherent.
Now, maybe, but their treatment of prisoners during WW2 was abhorrent. The last time I read a little bit about the Japanese situation, they were starting to experience problems over the national ‘work-till-you-drop’ ethic, have an unusual penchant among mature males for things like the soiled panties, and even saliva of under aged girls (speculation: a rising nation of child molesters?) and have started an increase in mental problems. Have you watched some Japanese entertainment TV lately? Where do you think the American program Jackass came from?
Yes, I kind of did neglect that but, months ago, I read a post on the SDMB where someone was discussing that and was instantly chastised for being racist, links were demanded, he or she was called a liar and people claiming to be Chinese popped up – if I recall correctly – claiming that no such thing went on. I was not willing to start a fracas here. Besides, while I know of it, I have no links.
Pyrrho12
Any further delineation isn’t necessary, in my opinion, for the general discussion.
From articles, documentaries, even tourism videos, from friends who have gone there, to sociological studies, National Geographic reports, reports and studies on herbal and natural medicines, reports and studies on traditional practices, political environment, war footage, disaster footage, aid footage, news footage, and so on. There are stalls where one may buy natural medications, where living snakes blood is sold, which means snakes are eviscerated daily. Eateries where living foods may be bought daily. Serve up twitching food in America, Canada, the UK, or even Australia and the law gets involved.
The rape of Nanking might spark a source or two. Japanese troops went in, raped, pillaged, tortured and freely murdered civilians. The death march consisted oof American, English and Australian POWs. The Hanoi Hilton is a pretty good example of POW treatment and in Korea, open cages, painfully bound prisoners, freely practiced torture and ignoring the universally accepted Geneva Convention was evident. In the South Pacific, there are records of Japanese soldiers forcing native populations to work for them or die, of mass rape of the native women and wanton murder even the Nazi’s did not do.
I believe one of them was a first hand account. Well, you may do your own search. The original, first hand accounts I read are years old, and I’m not able to find them on the Internet.
Collounsbury
Hmmm. Noted. Irrelevant. Move along now. Nothing for you to see here.