Adventurious82, it certainly seems to me that you are willing to ignore data which contradicts your thesis, and I see no good reason for why you are doing so.
Why is this not relevant? You are trying to make a value judgement about “oriental” people. If you cannot demonstrate that there is a contiguous population with shared behaviors which you can describe as “oriental”, then you have no case, regardless of whatever acts of cruelty you can describe. I hope you understand this point.
Let me state it in another way. How can you make judgements about all “orientals” when it is clear that the term, as defined by you, does not refer to a specific cultural or ethnic group but instead a multitude of them?
As was the U.S. treatment of civilian refugees during the Korean war. See this news article for some more information.
I understand your aversion towards certain aspects of Japanese culture, but fail to see how any of the above indicates “cruelty”. I also fail to see how any of the above applies to “orientals”, since you’re talking specifically about Japanese people.
I don’t know where the program “Jackass” comes from, but I’m almost certain that Americans have no-one but themselves to blame for WWF.
Perhaps I had not made myself clear. What I was hoping for were specific cites for specific claims. I was also hoping for more details, along the lines of those I requested earlier- i.e., the frequency and distribution of cited activities.
Your statements about “orientals” often do not bear any resemblance to the experience of those posters actually living in Asia, or who are of Asian descent themselves. This is certainly true in my case.
This is a good place to start. Where do these things occur?
I’m not too sure that any of the things you have described are truly worse than the things which the nazis did. I won’t dispute that they are roughly equivalent.
This does not, however, address your claim that German soldiers felt remorse while “oriental” soldiers did not for the crimes they committed against their fellow human beings.
Even if not on the internet, you can tell us what your source was. This would be especially important if your book source were more reliably than the web sources you provided. In any event, given the current information about “monkey brains”, I don’t think this story can be used to provide evidence for “oriental cruelty” for the reasons given in my previous post.
it has bothered me a bit ever since I started posting here that people on this board use the phrase “cites please” as some sort of invincible argument. In other words, when the OP’s original claims mesh with your (your=anyposter) personal values and opinions, you say “right on,” but when you disagree but have no basis for your own opinion you resort to “cites please,” like it’s some sort of intellectual high ground.
Does anyone else feel this way?
BTW, I am not attempting to attack any particular posters or even necessarily imply that people who do this are “bad.” I’m just wondering if anyone has noticed.
Back to the main topic…Adven, I thought more about the animal cruelty thing, and I came around to your way of thinking about thiiiiiis |-| much. However, to be honest, I have a gut feeling that the kind of cruelties you mention have parallels in our own culture that are simply not as visible. And also that the examples cited are sensationalist and do not represent general cultural characteristics of Asian cultures. BUT, I have to admit that these kinds of stories of animals eaten while still alive seem to come mostly (perhaps almost exclusively) from Asia.
I AM NOT saying, incidentally, that I think this makes a valid basis for saying Asian culture is inherintly more cruel. I still feel that that is an ethnocentric and, to be honest, kind of ignorant claim. I’m just saying that I see where you’re coming from and where you have gotten this impression.
But do you have to be such a big stubborn baby every time someone makes a new valid point? It only makes your argument appear that much more flawed.
Also…regarding lumping a bunch of Asian cultures together: of course Asian cultures are all different, but what about lumping the Americas and Europe into “Western culture?” I feel that if completely deny the validity of one you have to deny the validity of the other.
Although I realize there are probably plenty of you who do.
I’m not even going to bother with anything except the most obvious piece of contradiction the OP contains.
You say that Africa doesn’t count because it contains many different tribes that were often at war. Then you proceed to lump together countries like Japan and China, North and South Korea and etc.
These are completely seperate nations, they just happen to all look alike to YOU. I happen to be a caucasian living in Beijing and the stuff people eat here is no worse or cruel than the traditional Scandinavian food I’m used to. Down south they do a lot of things that seem strange to us, but think about what a Snickers bar, wrapped in some plastic material looks like to a farmer for Sichuan. Pretty damn weird stuff, I’d say.
Furthermore, Japanese and Chinese are not on good terms and to suggest that the war crimes committed against the Chinese people by Japan in WW2 shows the inherent cruelty of the Asian race (of which Chinese are a substantial part) is completely offensive.
Do the crimes of Adolf Hitler show the inherent cruelty of the caucasian appearing race, are Jews included as white? What are Arabs, who ecist in far greater numbers than the Native Americans you spoke of?
You need to get some perspective outside your own community.
Racial identity is not split up into four distinct groups by any definition, that’s the whole problem with the OP’s assumptions. Get that history book that was suggest before, but don’t forget to bone up on a few other things while your at it.
If a poster on this board presents some claim as fact, and I have no prior knowledge that what the poster says is true, I think that it’s perfectly reasonable to ask where that information came from.
When original sources are given, it’s possible for other posters to read them and make up their own mind on such things as the source’s acurracy, the OP’s interpretation of the source, and the relevance of the source to the current discussion.
This is just my personal opinion, I don’t have a cite to back any of it up.
That’s my feeling about it as well. Actually, as a North American who lives in Asia, I think my personal experiences (on both continents) provide substantial evidence that my feelings about it are correct.
This is one of the reasons why cites are so important. They would help to verify the accuracy of the claims being made in this thread.
If Adventurious gained his knowledge about “oriental” dietary practices from hearsay, or chain emails, or from animal rights organizations which don’t even operate on the Asian continent, then the veracity of said descriptions would be thrown into doubt. It may not be that these things happen in Asia, it may just be that Asia is currently the target of choice for those who want to do some finger-pointing.
If, on the other hand, his information was gained from the mainstream media, anthropological studies, or animal rights groups which actually do have a presence in Asia, then his descriptions would look far more likely. The fact that one of his cites on the “monkey brains” issue was a Beijing newspaper caused me to rethink my opinion that the story was patently false.
Not necessarily. It’s not as though “Western Culture” and “Asian Culture” are polar opposites whose very definition hinges upon the existence of the other. It would be quite possible, IMHO, for one to exist without the other.
That being said, I think it is fair (in certain circumstances) to talk about both “Western Culture” and “Eastern Culture”. However, a few points have to be made. Neither one of these entities are monolithic; the individual nations of which they are made retain their individual characteristics. In a sense, when we use the terms “Western Culture” and “Eastern Culture”, we are referring to the similarities which bind these nations together and ignoring their differences.
Secondly, in this thread Adventurious is not talking about “Eastern Culture”. He’s talking about the “oriental race”. That’s a whole different concept, at least as far as I can tell.
You mention the raping at Nanking, well even more recent than that was the events in the Balkans, to be more specific Bosnia and the surrounding area.
The stuff that Serbians were doing is just as bad as your examples of Asian cruelty. Rape, torture, you name it they did it to the Bosnians. I may not have any sites to back this up but I have an even better source. I am very good friends with someone who fought in the battles there and I have also seen tapes of human cruelty, one of which had soldiers holding a young man down to the floor while some others picked up a large rock and repeatedly bashed his arm into mush. What was worse, they seemed to be enjoying it.
I’d be interested to see where this fits in, you know blatant disregard of human rights and all that?
It’s like saying that all blacks are prone to sickle cell anemia. From the information I’ve gathered over the years, breakdown into various groups doe not seem to apply. The only thing which seems to affect my original view/theory is the level of public education and that has to be accompanied by two influences: A: length of time the public has had easy access to major sources of information and, B: the amount of traditional beliefs/views which have changed because of A.
Children can/are naturally cruel towards each other and things until they learn through experience and/or outside sources that such an attitude is wrong. Some quickly realize that doing certain things is not good, their emotional/ego systems maturing to the extent that empathy develops. Some do not. Some just learn to avoid disclosing certain urges/lack of empathy to others when they see that others do not accept them. Psychiatrists have noted for the last several decades that such people who fail to empathize with the pain of lessor creatures mature failing to fully realize empathy for other people. (CEO’s of some major companies fit this bill nicely , along with those who tend to commit violent crime.
This repugnant incident was an isolated one, which occurred during a war in which the American Soldier was sent out to kill the enemy, but, essentially, was told ‘don’t kill him too badly.’ The Korean war ranks right up there with Vietnam. I have little doubt that American soldiers committed some atrocities in war, but the body of evidence points out that the ‘Oriental’ race leans heavily to more major cruelties performed in any war, not only upon invading ‘round eyes’ but upon their own people.
Japanese are Orientals. Most of the Asian nations, it has been noticed, have similarities in culture, building techniques, art, poetry, government, religion, and traditions. They belong to the same ethnic grouping as Chinese or Vietnamese. Among most equally educated nations, sexual attention towards under aged girls is considered a sign of potential molestation. The age of consent varies. However, Americans have over compensated to the extent that paying attention to any kid can be construed as potential deviant behavior. That is not the current discussion here.
The ‘reality TV’ is. We have laws here preventing certain acts or actions from taking place and those that do get through are closely scrutinized by lawyers. Jackass is much more controlled than many of the Japanese programs, restricting the potential of harm to the moronic participants.
As for the WWF, I have no excuse. I leave room in my conclusions for the need of the American public to be deceived by moronic, over blown, scripted, corrupted displays of violence by musclebound, steroid popping, egomaniacs who like acting like school yard bullies. Still, the WWF is scripted, controlled and no one gets more than bruised.
Do you recall the first or 100th article you read concerning the Vietnam War? In what article was the dried sperm from President Clinton on Monica’s dress mentioned? In which article was the tumbling bullet mentioned in the killing of JFK? Cite for me the article you read concerning the training of Sushi Chefs in the preparation of the lethal Blow Fish or the last article concerning roach infestations in restaurants in the lower east side of New York City.
I cannot give easy cites concerning material I’ve read over a period of 20 years. That’s like asking me in which history reader, in grade school, did I first learn about Washington’s wooden teeth. I’m not willing invest the time in prowling the Internet with the inefficient browsers we have just to dredge up a quote. I’m expressing an opinion formed over years, putting it up to open discussion to determine the viability of it.
Hong Kong.
In several articles released within the last 15 years concerning the Nazi extermination of the Jews, it is mentioned that the Officers noted that German soldiers had to be pulled from mass executions because of the demoralizing effect on them. It also has been mentioned that guards around the death camps had to be chosen specifically for that duty because the regular soldier, trained to kill the enemy soldier, had problems with watching over civilians who were going to be slaughtered.
In articles concerning POWs held by the Japanese, Caucasian and Black troops were humiliated, beaten, tortured and killed because of their larger stature alone, and because many guards resented being ordered to guard those whom they considered inferiors because they were captured alive. To the Japanese soldier, surrender was not acceptable.
The German POW camps were much different from the Death Camps, since A: the prisoners were not destined to be killed, B; they were not to be worked to death, C: they were combatants and the German guards were soldiers also, so regular soldiers found it more acceptable to guard their peers. Surrender, in the German point of view, was not degrading to the point of dehumanizing. Most military POWs in German hands received medical assistance, ample food, little abuse, red cross packages and were at times allied mail.
This was rarely done with the POWs under Japanese control. It was noted that the Japanese often kept Red Cross packages for their own troops. Food for prisoners was poor in quality and low in quantity.
This comes to light in Vietnam, where starving POWs often ate whatever they could catch, from bugs to rats. Their diet was mainly boiled rice and not much of it. Again, in both Korea and Vietnam, allied POWs were exposed to torture, starvation, brutal beatings, medical treatments were withheld, mail and Red Cross packages often withheld, prisoners could be killed by the guards without warning or reason, and were marched publicly through hyped up, pissed off civilians who were allowed to batter and, in some instances, kill a few, while guards watched.
I don’t recall the Germans, French, Americans, English, Australians, Italians, Swedes, Canadians or any of the allied forces allowing such things. The English used POWs for extra farm labor and fed them well and provided medical care. The Americans isolated POWs in the dessert and the few who escaped were not killed and came back on their own, plus they provided them with good food, medical supplies and groups were allowed into the nearest town, under guard, to go to the movies.
In American and British POW camps, civilian groups often donated food, clothing and such to the German and Japanese prisoners. That did not happen in Japanese POW camps. Even in Germany, escaped POWs running into civilians would be captured and turned over to the Soldiers by civilians, but in Japan, such prisoners could be killed by the civilians.
Kyomara
There have been similar cruelties in our own culture, like the practice once used to castrate pigs. The farmer had a helper grab the pig, sliced off his balls then daubed on hot tar as a sealent/antibiotic. The same with bulls and horses.
Fishermen used to pile up ‘garbage’ fish around them when fishing off of banks, to suffocate in the air for no apparent use. Hunters used to wing animals and then leisurely track them until they collapsed. There are isolated incidents of dog breeders, wishing to make their dogs savage, deliberately forcing them to fight each other, forcing them to fight smaller, often weak animals like cats or kittens or small stray dogs. There have been instances of animals being found in cramped, inhumane conditions, diseased, starving, crippled in their owners hands. There have been many instances of men beating, kicking, abusing, shooting their dogs and cats seem to be still a favored target for kids and guys with big dogs.
BUT, we have enacted laws to protect animals and punish people for cruel and unusual punishment. More and more people have realized that animals are feeling creatures and now turn in abusive neighbors when they never used to. Vets often get wild animals injured on the roads rushed into their offices for care, hunters are required to have only certain weapons to hunt. Courts do prosecute cases of animal cruelty. Even slaughter houses are required to kill as quickly and humanely as possible.
As a result, there has been a change in the way people treat each other. We have thousands of new law cases in the courts every day concerning people abuse, inappropriate actions towards others, unacceptable practices, and this ranges even into business.
The RSPCA in England is the best in the world for animal protection, being virtually a law force, they don’t need warrants, consent forms or lawyers to take an abused animal from a place, even if the owner is not home. They may go onto a person’s property to examine a visible animal without being cited for trespassing and they kick ass when it comes to filing charges against abusers. Plus, they will, at their own expense, heal injured animals and either set them up for adoption or return them to their owners – only if the owner treats them better. (They are watched afterwards.)
Living foods. Aside from the quickly killed shellfish, none. Well, oysters and clams, but most are consumed quickly or are chilled into numbness, not allowed to suffer for as long as possible. I have observed a part time commercial fisherman gutting his catch of living fish, destined to hit the sea food store with a few hours and thought it horrible. He should have cut the heads off first, but he left them on. Still, the gutted creature would soon die, not be eaten half crisped and alive by people who take a vicarious delight in watching the pain of a creature as they eat it.
Even here, for people with snakes, dead mice are sold so as not to torture living mice as food sources in most cases.
Not al that long ago, some kids broke into their grade school and killed the class room pets, like mice and snakes. Not only were they brought up on charges of breaking and entering, destruction of property and inhumane treatment of animals and prosecuted, but required to get psychiatric evaluation and therapy.
Baby?
I’m presenting my arguments, just as you are. You disagree with me on points, so do I with you. If my ‘whining’ disturbs you, please feel free to go elsewhere. In the mean time, where’s my pacifier?
Adventurious, in your OP you asked that people point out any miscalculations you have made or where you went wrong. Here is my analysis of what you have done wrong: Your thesis is semantically flawed by your misunderstanding of the term “race”, as stated earlier by Morrison’s Lament. The information set from which you are drawing your conclusion is too superficial and biased to make the claim you are attempting to justify.
A few problems with this. In the first case, when saying that “all blacks are prone to sickle cell anemia”, this is a physical observation which may be demonstrated with evidence. It’s not something that you can state definitively on an a-priori basis. It’s nothing at all like the claims that you are making about “orientals”.
Do you understand why this is the case?
Secondly, AFAIK you are incorrect in asserting that all black people are succeptible to sickle-cell anemia. It is also incorrect to assert that this is a disease which is unique to the black race. Encyclopedia Brittanica gives information about the distribution of the disease here.
How is being ordered to kill unarmed civilians interpreted as being told “don’t kill him too badly”? I’m not sure that claiming this as an isolated incident refutes the importance or cruelty of this event, any more than it would do so for the “Bataan Death March” you mentioned earlier.
I do not see that you have demonstrated this assertion yet. It appears to me that based upon the evidence provided in this forum, one would have to conclude that “oriental” people and other “races” can both be exceedingly cruel in times of war.
It also seems to me that your analysis of the evidence is not consistent. In your argument “oriental” actions are always due to inherent cruelty; the cruel actions of other races may always be explained by mitigating factors. As several other posters have mentioned, you tend to use ad hoc reasoning to explain away evidence which contradicts your theory. Evidence which confirms your theory, on the other hand, seems to be accepted with little or no critical analysis.
Do you think I’m making an unfair assessment of your arguments here?
All Japanese are “orientals”. This does not imply that all “orientals” are Japanese.
Most of the Asian nations, it has been noticed, also have significant differences in culture and so forth. It’s possible to posess similarities without being exactly the same, or even close to the same. Your decision to ignore the differences between Asian nations has not yet been sufficiently justified.
According to the 4-race category system which you advocate. Not according to those of us on the board who dispute the definition of “race” as presented by yourself.
It is not my knowledge that the majority of Japanese men are into this kind of kink. If it is your opinion that they are, I think you had better have a source to back that up, because otherwise it sounds to me like you’re making an unfounded slanderous accusation. And if it is not your opinion that the majority of Japanese men are into it, need I remind you that North America also contains its fair share of sexual subcultures and deviancies?
No, I guess not, but if you are going to claim certain things as facts you should be able to document them.
Regarding your analysis of German soldiers versus “oriental” soldiers: I really wish that you could provide cites for your claims. I strongly suspect that some of your information may be biased. Your description of the thoughts and motivations of Japanese soldiers is fairly one-dimensional; have you, by any chance, ever read an account of WW2 written in Asia? Have you ever heard of Shiro Azuma?
Incidentally, I still have the window for Encyclopedia Britannica open, and their account of German POW camps differs substantially from your own. You can read about that here. According to the article, Germans were just as harsh to Soviet and Polish PoWs as the Japanese were to Americans. In fact, taking a quick look at the numbers, American prisoners in Japanese PoW camps were more likely to survive the war than the aforementioned residents of the German camps.
I think it’s fair to say that this account counters the claim you made that the Japanese were the only ones to treat their prisoners of war with excessive brutality.
Canadian Peacekeepers. Somalia. Here’s a link which details part of the story.
I’d like to mention here that in Canada at least, many of the prisoners held by the Canadian government during WW2 were Canadian citizens whose only crime was having Asian ancestors. In Canada at least, this is generally regarded as a shameful moment in our nation’s history. Perhaps someone who knows more about this can fill in some of the details for me.
Why do you say that they take vicarious delight in suffering? Various other posters have already discussed the reasons for eating the flesh of living/recently deceased fish, and sadism wasn’t on the list. If you want to discuss things rationally then please do so but if your only intent is to slander “orientals” then please take it to the Pit.
BTW, can you document the “half crisped and alive” thing for me? What part of the world does that supposedly come from?
Are you trying to imply that in Asia, behavior such as this is considered acceptable and would not be treated in the same way?
graphic descriptions of the culinary delights of the “cruelest race” including eating live monkey brains…
I think we need a few more nominees before we organize the SDMB awards ceremony for interesting issues. I do suggest however that any threads/topics dealing with intelligence and race are inherently inane and not worthy of acknowledgement.
Gawd help me for sticking my nose into a GD thread but I laughed out loud when I saw this. Why on earth is it NOT relevant? Are you saying that the culture of Japan is the same as that of the Hmong? Or that of China very similar to that of Tibet? Yes, this IS a relevant point; unfortunately it goes against your grain of thought so you have decided to ignore it.
“Don’t kill him too badly?” They mowed down hundreds of unarmed civilians at Nogun-Ri. American soldiers did it again at My Lai in Vietnam. Neither of these were attacks on enemy soldiers, but instead against defenseless civilians, including children.
Here’s a quote from a German soldier (which I found here) regarding his participation in the Holocaust:
The Nazis killed almost 12 million people, including 6 million Jews, as well as Catholics, homosexuals, gypsies, political opponents, the hanidcapped, the mentally challeged, and others. It’s been well-documented how horribly the prisoners were treated, including inhuman medical experiments. Here’s some more info from the survivors, and here’s some about the Nazi doctors like Josef Mengele.
During the 1930s and '40s, the Russians sent millions of their own citizens to Siberian forced-labor camps. Gulag deaths are estimated to be between 15 and 30 million. Here’s more about the gulags.
Pyrrho12 responded:
The Japanese internment camps were basically prisions in the US and Canada for citizens with Japanese ancestry on the pretense that they might be spying for Japan. In the US, these camps tended to be in the desert regions in California and very harsh conditions. Here’s some info about the Canadian internment camps. That these things existed at all in either country is pretty shameful, considering that none of the imprisoned actually did anything to make the government suspect they would spy for Japan.
Hopefully, this demonstrates that “Asians” aren’t the only ones who commit atrocities, even during the modern age.
In 1997 I read a story in Newsweek about a rash of rabbit killings. Over 100 rabbits kept as classroom pets were brutally killed by disturbed adolescent boys. The general public was outraged, and the story was considered so shocking that it received international coverage. In fact, if it hadn’t received international coverage I never would have heard about it, because it happened in Japan.
At least at the time it was believed that these boys might have been inspired to kill rabbits after another Japanese boy became infamous for murdering a classmate. The murderer had a past history of abusing animals. This may sound like a point in favor of your “wicked Orientals” theory. But there have been far, far more American boys who have murdered their classmates, and the young people driven to emulate them don’t stop at killing bunnies. Do you think a rash of similar rabbit killings in the US would be considered particularly shocking or worthy of international attention?
Torturing rabbits is a horrible thing, but if anything it would be a step up for the US if our disturbed youths could limit themselves to killing small animals as opposed to their parents, teachers, and classmates. I don’t think we’re in any position to condemn the Japanese.
Ehm, sorry to nitpick/hijack, but wasn’t that Siddharta Gautama (another notoriously cruel Asian!), and not that Geena Davis movie? I always get the two mixed up myself
It’s been repeatedly pointed out to you that your “racial” groups arn’t valid, either on a ethonologial, cultural or a genetic basis. You’ve repeatedly stated this is “irrelavant.” It’s not. The ENTIRE BASIS OF YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THIS IS A VALID GROUPING.
Otherwise you’re just listing bad stuff done by asains and saying all asains should be held responsable for them. This is exactly the same as insisting that blacks are inferior because most gang members are black, or evil because the guy who shot your grandfather was black. (Note: Not that I know weither or not most gang members are black or not . . .)
Ye Gods. Again, “they look Oriental to me” is not any kind of valid grouping. So, by your standards, most idol singers arn’t “Oriental,” as most of them have big eyes and pale skin. You included Indians in one of your previous posts, who are a broad mix of asain, caucasion, and african. Are only the ones with obvious asain features more cruel?
A lot of this seems to be dietary based. As I said, understandable, but not really fair. Again, **Have you considered that perhaps the reason many of these nations don’t have laws regulating butchery (assuming they do, I’m not willing to accept that as fact without a cite) is because that, until recently, some of them didn’t eat enough meat to have professional butchers, and thus never had “the Jungle”-like abattoirs, and thus never saw the need for them? **
In the US and most of Europe, people buy their food nicely packaged into unrecognisable chunks. In at least some “oriental” countries, meat (or at least fish) is bought as is, with the head and everything. So is the housewife who lops the heads and ripps off more cruel than one who just opens the celophane, while letting faceless tenagers at the supermarket do the bloody stuff, or more honest? Or, (and I think this is most likely) just hungry, and buying such food as is available?
Again, your views on rights of animals used as food are hadly universal even among caucasians. How you judge others is your own choice, of course, but that dosn’t mean its the ONLY way to do so.
Think of it this way. (And I’d like an answer to this one, if it’s not too much trouble . . .) If a Japanese or Canadian insisted to you that Americans are the genetically cruelest race, because they don’t provide thier citezens free health care, as any civilized society surely would, would you agree? And then rejected any arguement about the “race” comment as being “irrelevant,” because after all, all Americans dress and look pretty much the same to them. And rejected any arguemnts about cruelty because all other societies who have reached a certain technologial and wealth level have it, would you agree? Would you assume that the person was asking a genuine question, or making a thinly veiled attack?
Again, Do you know what a “rice culture” is?
Indeed they are. One of the big concerns among the adults there is that the younger generation dosn’t seem to have the work ethic the last one did.
If you want to Japan-bash, a little more reaseach would give you some better ammo, really. There’s plenty there, after all, they have porn on TV . . . (horrors!)
So, is the “rising nation of child molesters” genetic, (perhaps it’s a sex-linked gene . . .) or cutural? Do you actually know anything about the Japanese sex industry besides 80’s Japan-bashing propaganda? Do you actually know anything about age-based social mores in Japan?
An increase from what? What kind of mental problems?
Indeed I have. Rather more than you, I would assume. If you assume it’s all sadistic game shows, you need to get a broader frame of refence than SNL skits. If you can give me an example of an american show as good as Cowboy Bebop, now that MST3K is off the air, I’d like to see it.
I don’t even know what this is. But a culture that’s produced Ally McBeal, the current rash of “reality” shows, and daytime talk shows has very little room to criticize what other countries choose to put on TV.
We don’t necisarily have to answer for the WWF, though. Wasn’t that based on Mexican wrestling?
Incedentally, people would be more willing to listen to your posts if you didn’t pepper them with cracks like “where life is cheap” and “rising nation of child molesters.”
There have been many incidents of cruel acts committed in wars by non-Asian’s, Americans included, but the thing of it is, such acts do not seem to spring so easily to these races as observed historically in the Asian one. While no race is free of such acts, it seems to me that the incidents of them are moreso among Asians.
As civilization has progressed and education and understanding grown within the average peoples, such casual incidents have dramatically dropped, except within the Asian race(s).
During the wars over the last 100 years, all nations agreed to the Geneva Convention rules concerning the treatment of prisoners, but the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and Koreans readily ignored them when the time came. Other races, as the population became better educated, dropped incidents of traditional or casual cruelty towards each other and lessor creatures to a major extent, but not the Asian ones.
Hong Kong. There was an example of it, showing how it is done, on a cooking show concerning foreign foods. It showing the fish being taken alive from a tank, quickly scaled, gutted, the head wrapped with a cloth, then dipped repeatedly by hand by the chef in hot oil up to the cloth to cook it. Then served to the diners, who used chopsticks to pick apart the fried body while the head gasped and moved the whole time.
A previous poster here mentioned playing with the still living head parts of a lobster he/she was consuming with a family member.
The freshness of food is one thing, but when does the diners urge for taste include the prolonged death agonies of the meal?
I don’t recall other races taking delight in chomping down on living mammals or seafood. Do Canadians serve up partially cooked goose so they can watch it writhe as they slice off chunks? How many British sit down to a meal of live kippers in sauce in the mornings? I guess some African tribesmen slice open and enjoy the delicate flavor of the still living deer-like animal they speared? (I forgot the name.) How many Australian restaurants offer the diner twitching food to feast on?
kiffa
Yes. Indeed. There should be another ‘which movie star would you screw’ thread out there. Along with a few ‘doper-fest – where shall we meet and get drunk’ ones, and the ever so popular '(insert name) you (insert vulgarity) are a (insert vulgar descriptive phrase) rants, and the ever continuing assortment of homosexual related topics.
foolsguinea
[quoote]Oh, well. As for Oriental cooking practices, behavior in war, etc.–hey, that’s life. Maybe your standards of “cruelty” are peculiar to you, eh?
I refer you to The Long Kiss Goodnight: “Life is pain!”
…as corollary, it stands to reason that pain is life.
[/quote]
Thank you. Move on now. Nothing for you to see here. Go back and have some more piercings done.
Protesilaus
I don’t think I have the capacity to make myself, or my reasoning, understood here.
The acts you mentioned were committed during times of great national stress. Even the Germans had to be ‘whipped’ into a frenzy. The nationalities mentioned did not just casually walk around prior to this, committing atrocities to everyone and everything. I’m not sure even I grasp how an entire population, such as the Germans, could be turned against a select group of religions or races, considering their previous history.
But, in the Canadian and American containment camps – created after Japan bombed Pear Harbor, the people were not starved, denied medical attention, no one was experimented on, they were not randomly shot, not worked to death, not beaten into pulp for the enjoyment of the guards, and the average citizen would not kill one on sight. Nor were any tortured to death, made to hunker down in cramped, open air cages, while painfully bound or fed a diet of meager boiled rice, spoiled meats and vegetable leavings.
The Russian savagery did not start until communism gained hold in their nation and even then, that was done by the ruling parties, not the average people on the street.
There is a difference between horrific acts forced upon people by rulers or officers and those freely committed by the average citizen. A soldier working at a death camp might not want to be there, but refusing to do as he was told during the latter part of the war would have resulted in his execution. There is also a difference between people being ‘brainwashed’ and encouraged to act with particular cruelty towards a race or religion nation wide – as happened in Germany, and people acting on their own free will.
Hitler was insanely smart and gathered intelligent, rabid officers about him. They put in place a whole mass of complex propaganda to persuade the average German to hate specific targets, which included controlling the media, plus they sent out groups with specifically chosen leaders to make sure the people behaved ‘properly,’ like the Hitler Youth, who ratted on their own families.
The techniques and methods Hitler used to control an entire Nation are still being studied today. Plus, he started by playing on the postwar poverty and resentment of the nation when they were in national crisis. Never in history has such control been so quickly or easily been wielded by one man, without the initial aide of massive military might, over a nation.
Still, the average German and Russian did not go around committing random acts of torture as a matter of daily living or for dining pleasure.
The ‘Orientals’ seem to commit casual torture all through their history as a daily part of life.
In reference to the ‘race’ dispute:
I lump all Asians into a single grouping for reasons stated previously.
The Chinese have a lengthy history of casual cruelty towards animals and themselves. In war they have repeatedly come up with some of the most savage tortures known, often becoming sadistically inventive on those in existence. Historically, they have butchered POWs
The Vietnamese have had a long history of casual cruelty towards animals and also in war producing some of the most inhumane tortures devised as well as home made killing devices. They also butchered and tortured POWs.
The Taiwanese have a similar history.
The Japanese rank right up there with the Chinese.
The Mongol hordes were one of the bloodiest Asian groups to sweep through Asia.
Lopping off the head off the prey is more merciful than slicing and dicing it while it is still alive, or chomping down on the squirming food claiming it tastes better that way. The casual cruelty concerns me for it in turn seems to lead into casual cruelty in relation to others.
Years back, farmers and people who worked around animals being processed for food were not known to be the most sympathetic folks when dealing with others. Today, long term criminals released from years in prison are observed not to have much empathy for others. People raised in cruel, abusive situations where casual cruelty towards each other is pronounced and common have been determined to eventually commit the most violent and thoughtless crimes.
Combine this with limited education, restricted world view and you churn out a people with low empathy for feeling beings, more likely to engage in pain inflicting activities.
But, is this genetic or sociological? The Asians have the highest rate of casual cruelty in the historical world. Is it genetic or sociological?
How can one person go and produce delicate works of art, requiring hundreds of layers of hand rubbed varnish or delicately laid in gold foil, creating an exquisite beauty of unsurpassed magnificence, then casually go down and dine on a gasping fish, rip apart a live squid and toss the head aside to twitch while they cook the body or take scissors and cut open the shell of a living and struggling lobster to eat the raw, feeling flesh inside?
If not genetic, then it must be cultural. If cultural, then where it still goes on must be due to lack of world wide education because history has shown us that as a race becomes better educated, it matures and as it matures, it becomes aware of the pain encompassed by lessor beings and develops empathy towards them.
In the Asian race we have a curious contradiction: holy monks practicing peace and humility eventually developing the first of the very lethal martial arts, basing many moves on gentle things of nature. (Yes, I know why they developed the defensive arts for protection.) Then the wide spread martial arts philosophy, later breaking down into several forms, of inner peace, self defense but utterly savage mauling and killing when necessary.
It’s kind of like your anger management shrink turning out to be a member of the bloodiest American biker gang.
The casual cruelty can be seen in the Japanese work ethic. Rigorously structured, they work until they die. They ‘must’ work. All for the company. Nothing for the worker. All over Japan, work is paramount, with everything structured towards the individual worker being part of the whole, with pressures enough to cause many to never take vacations or to suicide if they get fired. They have a regulated cast system striating levels of workers, the lowest of whom virtually have to grovel and face humiliation to attempt to climb the ladder. Upper level management pushes lower levels with ruthless force to advance their careers.
The Japanese worker is a drone in a hive of bees with little to protect him or give him rights.
Casual cruelty can be expressed in ignoring human rights. It can be expressed in the allowing of dangerous television shows forcing people to commit acts of self abuse or intense humiliation. It is expressed in times of war in the treatment of prisoners.
While many races have practiced such cruelties, most have grown out of them, affecting laws to prevent such things, but the Asians have not gone very far in this area. So, is it genetic, or cultural.
I’m starting to lean towards cultural after all.
Agreed. You forgot about the greatest horror ever released on the known world: infomercials and psychic networks. Americans are to blame for those.
But here’s the thing, Adventurious. For every act of “oriental” cruelty which you have listed, other posters have come in and listed acts of cruelty by other “races”. Yet you continue to try to deny the validity of these other accounts.
Of course it seems to you that these incidents are moreso among Asians. You’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
See this page from the Skeptic’s Dictionary regarding selective thinking.
I am not trying to accuse you of dishonesty or anything, but perhaps your analysis of this situation is incorrect. I am just trying to show you how that might be so.
In what specific instance did the Chinese ignore the Geneva Convention?
Can you remember what cooking show? Do you have some way in which I may verify your information myself? This sounds like a strange thing to show on a cooking program… they usually don’t make a special effort to gross out their audiences.
Unless you have some way of corroborating this story, I am afraid that I’m going to have to judge it as apocryphal. Perhaps you are misremembering the details, such as in your initial accounts of the “monkey brain” story, or the Bataan Death March.
Interesting pages on memory here and here. If you wonder why I, and other posters on this board, are reluctant to accept your claims without cites to back them up then please read these two pages.
In that case, as the lobster was already beheaded and dismembered I doubt that the animal was still alive. What was being observed was most likely motion caused my morbid nerve action, as happens when the head is cut off a chicken.
The tentacles of octopi which have been butchered will continue to writhe for several minutes. I’m sure there are other examples of this phenomenon.
I realise that you believe you have made an important discovery. kiffa disagrees.
If you want to make ad hominems, I ask you again to take it to the pit. I fail to see how foolsguinea’s post inspired this reply. If you value the fact that people can disagree with you without resorting to name-calling or flaming, then please respect the rights of others in this regard.
As were acts of wartime cruelty committed by the “orientals” that you have mentioned. Please re-read my earlier comment about attribution errors.
So, I guess acts of cruelty towards the general populace in China and Vietnam cannot be used as evidence in this discussion, either.
Information, please. What acts of person to person cruelty were regularly commited by “the average citizen” in Asian countries? From what source did you learn of these acts?
I believe I know what you’re talking about here, but for the sake of argument I’ll ask you for more details on this claim. Are you referring to a specific psychological experiment regarding the power of authority?
The only thing I can think of which you might be talking about here is the food preparation issue. Well, according to the evidence you have provided so far, this evidence applies only to Hong Kong and Japan. And you have provided no evidence to suggest that the eating or cooking of still-living animals is a casual part of daily life. These might be mainstream dishes; they might be the singular creations of an insane chef.
Because they look alike… Because you think the differences between Asian cultures are irrelevant… and because you think it’s more manageable to talk about these things when you can categorize people in that way. Am I being unfair in mu summary of your justification?
Suffice it to say, I count myself among the posters who do not believe your justifications are sufficient. Your first answer, concerning ancestry and physical appearance, is irrelevant. I think there is sufficient evidence to say that these two things do not in themselves dictate behavior, and no evidence whatsoever to say that they do.
Your second answer, that differences between Asian cultures are irrelevant, needs to be justified itself. As far as I can tell, your justification of this one is that all the examples of cruelty you provide come from Asian cultures, so they must be intrinsic to Asian culture. I don’t think I have to provide a cite when I say that just because all X are Y, that doesn’t mean all Y are X. You can pick a sample from Asian culture, as you have done, but that does not by itself indicate that all Asians match your sample, bringing us back to the original question.
As for the assertion that talking about races in the broad terms you outlined earlier would make the discussion more manageable, I believe this is an example of the pragmatic fallacy. You believe that it is true because it is useful to you to believe so. Unfortunately, the utility of a belief says nothing about its validity.
People wouldn’t keep asking this question if you provided a satisfactory answer, and until this question is solved your entire thesis is meaningless.
You are not allowing evidence of cruelty in a culture’s past to come into this discussion, so the “long history” of the Chinese is basically moot. And the Chinese currently have a communist government, which according to your above quote must certainly excuse their current cruelty “towards themselves”. So, the evidence you are left with for Chinese cruelty is the food preparation issue, which has not yet been properly documented by you.
They should, given the fact that they were/are a part of China.
Do you really believe that the other races involved in the Vietnam war performed significantly better? Check out the references provided by Protesilaus.
When was the last time they swept through? I thought we were only allowed to use modern events as evidence.
Is this true? Perhaps it’s a part of the folklore in your part of the world, but I have never heard of this opinion before.
Is it possible that they didn’t have much empathy for fellow human beings before going to prison in the first place?
Are you talking about “orientals” here? How do you justify the statements that they recieve limited education, or a restricted world view? Note that in terms of justification, I expect a cite with comparisons of different countries both inside and outside of Asia.
Why do you keep asking this question? I’m not at all sure that you understand the issues here. You list a number of factors above which I assume must be things you believe contribute to “oriental cruelty”. All of the factors you list are social in nature. Then you ask, “is it genetic or sociological”.
Have you read the “race” thread yet? Do you understand population genetics in any way? Don’t feel bad about ansering “no” to either of these questions. If your thesis were true, that “orientals are the cruelest race”, then it would be impossible (or at the very least incalculatably improbable) for this behavior to be genetically caused, since the word “orientals” does not describe a coherent genetic population.
How is it possible for one American to work all day on the world’s most advanced space program at NASA, then casually walk down the street and smoke a half pound of crack cocaine before appearing on the Jerry Springer show and getting into a fistfight with a transgendered sea turtle?
I’m not sure how either of our stories are possible. And I’m not sure how caricaturing different ethnicities is really advancing this discussion.
You seem to assert that your above story depicts a valid personification of the “oriental race”. Is it possible that part of the problem with your analysis is that you are mixing up the ideas of “culture”, “race” and “individual”?
In the west we have Jesus Christ, who told his followers to “love thy neighbor”. Some time later, his followers took that to mean “kill thy neighbor if thy neighbor won’t convert”.
Interesting analysis of the Japanese work ethic; I can’t comment on its validity, though. It seems to me that you are being a little melodramatic in the presentation of these issues. Would a poster who actually resides in Japan care to comment?
In any event, once again this does not say anything about “orientals” in general. It’s just one more aspect of Japanese culture that you don’t agree with, and I find that its application to the question of cruelty is somewhat elusive.
Ura Maru made a lot of good observations in his (her?) most recent post. I don’t feel that Adventurious’s reply was particularly satisfactory, since only two points were adressed. Of these, one was evaded and the other had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
But they aren’t. You’ve already had many cruel acts listed for you by myself and others, but here are a few more:
The continued fighting in the Gaza Strip between Israelis and Palestinians.
The conflict in Northern Ireland between the British and Irish.
The fighting in Rwanda between the Hutus and Tutsis.
The battles in the former Yugoslavia, with fighting between Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, and Kosovars.
That still doesn’t excuse them, nor does it make them less cruel.
The German people never accepted their loss in WW1 as legitimate. Even when the Treaty of Versailles was signed, German territory had still not been invaded. The Germans felt they had been betrayed. Then they were forced to give up large amounts of territory, disarm, and pay heavy reparations which put the country in dire straits financially. Then the depression came, which made things even worse. When they saw a charismatic new politician who gave them an easy solution - scapegoating the Jews as the source of all their problems - the German people all too eagerly jumped at the chance.
We were also at war with Germany and Italy, but did not imprison German or Italian immigrants or their descendants. Some of the Japanese-Americans interred were natural-born Americans who had never even been to Japan.
The many camp guards weren’t high-ranking officials, just average Russian citizens who happened to be in the Red Army.
You seem to be suggesting that German soldiers performed cruel acts out of coercion, while Japanese soldiers did the same willingly. I don’t see how you could give one group the benefit of the doubt but not the other.
But those officers, leaders, and groups are all individuals who chose to participate in those cruelties.
Again, you seem to be suggesting that the Germans can’t be blamed for what they did, as they were all being controlled by a ruthless leader, yet you do not extend to the Japanese the same consideration.
There are plenty of examples of random acts of cruelty by average people in the modern Western world, including:
Hate crimes, such as the brutal killings of James Byrd, Jr. in Texas and Matthew Shepard in Wyoming
Terrorist attacks, such as the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings
Serial killers, including Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Jack the Ripper, the Boston Strangler, Andrew Cunanan, and others
School shootings (for a comprehensive list, click here).
In the 4 race situation you mentioned, the term “Caucasian” must be taken to include Europeans, Arabs, and Asian Indians. How can they be considered part of the same ethnic group? Can an Englishman be said to be exactly the same as a Syrian? A Syrian the same as a Pakistani? These are diverse cultures and cannot be tarred with the same brush. The same goes for the “Asians.”
Even if we narrow the group down to include only Europeans, who all have roughly the same skin tone (i.e. “look alike”), this is still an issue. Is the culture of Ireland the same as that of Greece? Spain’s the same as the Ukraine’s? Sweden’s the same as Slovakia’s? Would you say the same of these nations? If so, I’d certainly like to hear the explanation. If not, then you can’t make the same claim about Asians.
I thought you only wished to discuss modern times. If you want to include the past, my first post includes many instances of cruelty in historical Europe. There are plenty more I didn’t list. As for torture, during the Middle Ages, Europeans invented many cruel forms of torture. Check any source about the Inquisition or Witch Hunts for further elaboration on torture devices.
While I don’t support the views of this organization, PETA is probably the source for information on animal cruelty. There, you’ll find many examples of animal cruelty in the Western culture.
It shouldn’t surprise you that I find this more than a little difficult to believe. Nothing you’ve provided so far has shown this to be true. Is there a statistic or some other evidence somewhere that could substantiate this?
No more curious than the pope and other holy men calling for an armed invasion of Jerusalem (several times). Here is more Crusades information.
It seems this is simply the philosophy that the one will take risks and face hardship to ensure the success of the whole, since without the whole, the one could not survive. It’s the same reasoning that lead many young men in the Western democracies to voluntarily enlist to fight in wars such as WW2, even though they knew they might be killed.
Is this philosophy right for the modern Japanese businessman or the society as a whole? Maybe, maybe not. That’s not the issue here. Is it cruel? No.
No organization does more for the cause of human rights throughout the world than Amnesty International. At their site, you can see cases from all around the globe showing neglect of basic human rights. This is hardly a situation in “Asian” countries alone.
The above link I previously posted was a first hand article written by someone who had watched the live fish prepared the way I stated. However, it appears that articles written by people who have been there are not sufficient proof for this board.
Pyrrho12
You can ask me to take this to the PIT until you grow old with age, but I choose not to do so, finding the PIT to be nothing but a site for insults made by faceless people who know they are out of arms reach. In more than one ‘discussion’ there, the subject has crumbled into basically exchanged insults and wild accusations.
Cites please. I find no evidence to the contrary. Perhaps you need to brush up on your Asian studies, reading something besides travelogues.
Well, try their treatment of Japanese prisoners during WW2, then their treatment of prisoners during the Korean and Vietnamese wars. Those ‘military advisors’ were great in instructing both Koreans and Vietnamese in how to extract information from prisoners via pain and how to make examples of civilians who chose not to join their cause, how to eliminate the scholars of the societies who protested too much, how to establish and run ‘reeducation’ camps, and how to select ‘team’ leaders willing to go to any lengths to get the job done, including using murder. They taught both nations how to make public examples of anyone not agreeing with their doctrine, including the use of mock trials, beaten confessions, public beheading, the rape and killing of wives in front of husbands, and how to turn a child into a bomb.
During these wars, they taught and guided both nationalities in the process of conscription, how to keep reluctant soldiers in the ranks, how to destroy the spirit but not the body, to destroy educational material and how to play any racial hatred to their advantage. The Chinese went in with Korean and Vietnamese leaders and instructed them on mass brainwashing, using a combination of torture, killings, limited food, brutal punishment and fear.
The Chinese had honed these methods on their own people before and used them later for their select form of communism. Check your historical records.
The thing of it is, while other races have had periods of cruelty towards others and lessor creature, they had grown out of them but the Asian communities have not.
People gripe about land mines, which are a weapon of war, used by all nations but the Vietcong developed lethal traps that were just as deadly and invented the sucker techniques for sending wired kids and women to Americans, to blow up. They also killed their own villagers who were caught using American medical supplies or who were eating American rations to keep from starving.
The Koreans and Vietnamese, it is suspected, probably killed about as many of their own people as Allied forces did.
Haven’t watched Iron Chef much have you?
Brownian motion. I doubt it. Even if it was, not too many people I know of enjoy watching parts of their meal writhe while eating it. It takes a certain type of mind set to be able to do that. On Iron Chef, I watched an Asian cook take a live lobster, use cooking scissors and split the shell open to pull out the still living meat, then set the head part, complete with twitching legs, on the side to be served as a garnish.
Here we kill shellfish quickly. They go from a cold water bath, usually iced, into vigorously boiling water. Professionals from both the cooking and medical fields have agreed that the sudden shock kills them within seconds and it is probable that they feel little pain.
I’ve watched Japanese cooks on Iron Chef take lobsters from a room temperature water bath and drop them into steamers, while their assistant has to hold the top down until they die. From a cold water bath, the same chefs have taken living squid, wrenched the heads off with their fingers and tossed them aside to squirm in a pan for minutes.
Unlike mammals, which die almost instantly when the head is removed, sea creatures mostly do not. It takes them a while.
It appears to me that Asians, of all of the other races, have this ‘thing’ for finding more ways to prolong the death of food than anywhere else.
People yell about using young calves for food – veal-- but at least they are killed before being butchered. Even chickens are mass slaughtered prior to being plucked and gutted. I don’t recall any American meal being made of an animal while it was still alive, nor Canadian, nor English – though no one is really sure about Haggis and bubble and squeak sounds sinister. Italians don’t chow on living pigs or stuff living fish with herbs and bake. The French at least kill the snails before serving them.
No. Correct. The differences in the cultures are minor, the similarities are major, the ancestral tree is a factor, the things I’ve stated have happened in all Asian cultures. Until the intervention of communism, all major Asian cultures had rulers, kings, all had similar dietary habits, all had similarities in the languages, in the arts, the construction techniques, religion and writing. I recall when Vietnam was called Siam and a great place to go. Even then, while the people were varied in clothing styles, more similar to Indian, the building techniques and writing were similar to Chinese and Japanese.
BTW, why do you think scholars placed the ‘ese’ at the end of the names they gave these peoples? Could it be because they are all Asian? Similar names for similar people?
My agreeing with it or not is not relevant. I find it interesting that a race which has a history of casual cruelty has developed a demeaning – or rather – slavish work ethic that is similar to the techniques used on their soldiers in WW2, as well as cruel towards the average worker.
Again, I point out, when a race or group remains cruel even towards lessor feeling beings, such casual cruelty usually works it’s way into daily life to be expressed towards each other, which is then expressed in world views. There are many articles concerning the emotional/mental problems of Japanese men due to their cruel work ethic which confines many to a position of low status in their companies, which, for them, is humiliating.
Dig them up yourself. I read 'em. They’re available.
Now, I find the Japanese, among other Asians, as fascinating people but the ‘split personality’ has always been something I’ve been curious about.
I could understand the Nazis, the Russians, the current situations in Africa, but have wondered about the Asians. Their history in such acts is not sporadic, but consistent.
Current psychological studies are showing that people who grow up being casually cruel towards animals have a tendency to be less empathetic towards others as well as being more prone towards criminal activity.
Even people like hunters, who are frequently around death, have altered attitudes in various ways concerning their interactions with others. They tend to not be empathetic towards those experiencing something alien towards them or those introducing new ideology.
Currently, similar observations can be made in any ghetto society, where casual cruelty towards each other has escalated into callous attitudes towards those out off the social circle. (Just watch Judge Mathis, Judge Brown, Jerry Springer or any number of court TV programs. Granted, the guests are selected for sensationalism, but once they get rolling, the single-mindedness, cruelty and selfishness is apparent as hell.)
You think the people who select the guests don’t target certain lifestyles?
No, not all Asians do these things, but enough do for it to draw my attention. Watch Japan. Their work ethic is going to cause them problems within the next few years and one will see even more ‘crazy’ TV programs emerge. Watch China also, for as the old guard power base dies off, they allow more and more international scrutiny, so more casual cruelty will be observed.
I mean, look at all of the old movies and current anime. The subject: great warriors who are normally gentle and peaceful, surrounded by things of beauty, who, instantly can become ruthless killing machines and after slaughtering countless numbers of the enemy, go back to writing poetry.
Again, look at the UK with it’s animal rights laws. They have less crime than America and what they do have is less violent. They came from a particularly violent history, but ‘grew’ out of it. A sure sign of a maturing nation is when it starts to protect it’s lessor creatures.
A people which practices kindness towards it’s lessor creatures tend to start practicing empathy towards one another and towards other societies.
Thirty years ago you could beat your dog to death in the street and nothing would happen. You could also beat up your wife and kids. Now doing either will get you tossed in jail, the latter for a much longer period of time. People who used to say 'hell, it’s just an animal have begun to rethink their opinions under the pressure of animal rights groups.
Neighborhoods which used to be virtual battle zones have now begun to cooperate with each other, understanding each other, more empathetic towards each other.
Had America entered Desert Storm shortly after WW2, say, in the 1960s, the troops would not have stopped short of getting Sadaam. Changes over the years have made the military and political leaders respect the feelings of the nations they traveled over and helped. To chase Sadaam into his nation would have insulted the Islamic community. Plus, in Baghdad, American forces stopped to allow native forces to ‘take’ the city, realizing that it was important for the occupants to see familiar faces arriving as heroes.
Empathy.
Plus, no POW captured by allied forces in Desert Storm was abused, though a few American and British POWs were beaten up by enemy captors. The allied forces operated under empathy.
