Which the EU is obviously part of. I didn’t know the EU was trying to make Europe look bad.
What are you talking about adaher? What is the EU so obviously part of? Europe? France? Israel? America? The boycott?
Now there’s a sig if ever I saw one …
Eolbo,
Do you consider those who are Arab in France as not French? I remind you of this in that thread for some data that anti-semitic violence really is on the rise:
The facts are straightforward:
There is an increase in violent acts targetting Jews especially in France and Belgium, mainly committed by disenfranchised poor Arab youth, who are exposed to things like documentaries presenting “The Protocols” as fact in Arab language media.
There is a long history of antisemitism in Europe from both the Right and the Left with often mutually conflicting charges; since WWII it has been very unfashionable to say those thoughts out loud. This does not mean they have become less popularly held view.
Israel is oft and incommensurately vilified in the European media.
Attacks on Israel are used by some as cover for antisemitic attacks. Attacking Israel is socially acceptable.
None of which means that that poll proves that “Europe is antisemitic” or even that vilfying Israel (as opposed to criticizing her) is an antisemitic act. Interpretation is interpretation. To me the last thousand or so years just doesn’t disappear, it just gets displaced a little until it finds a way to be expressed.
Give Aldebaran a break, furt, he does make many very good points. I’ll have to check out those Pit threads on the guy , though…
Not in Belgium that I am aware of.
There were however some racial linked incidents but much more targetting Muslims, like the murder on a Moroccan family by a lunatical racist neighbour. Who is Belgian. And like the murder on a young Imam by a mentally disturbed neighbour. Who is also Belgian and only crazy, not racist.
There were a few incidents I know off and with rather large involvement of a new organisation " AEL" ( so called " Arabic European Liga") who gets far too much attention in the press and trives on that, but has no support among the general Muslim public in Belgium. At one of those occasions some of those demonstrators tried then to enter the Jewish quarter in Antwerp. But they didn’t succeed because of course the police was prepared for the possibility of such an escalation.
There is no such popularity for antisemitsm in Europe that I am or was ever aware off in the 31 years that I walk around on this globe. From which quite a lot of time was spend in Europe. Neo- nazi’s and related are marginal groups.
Not at all. Istrael is pictured in its policies and actions like they are. Palestinian actions and policies are brought like they are. Both sides of the story are brought and given equal weight and attention. Which is how an independent and honest press coverage should be. This is indeed quite different then what one can see in US media.
But was is indeed visible the last months is that whenever Israeli soldiers kill a Palestinian or whenever the army bombs a house of a car, it is named “killed” a child or a Palestinion civilian and “assassination” of the people in that house or car. Which is only the truth.
Of course that doesn’t land well in Israel and among the Israel defenders. It is a bit painful to see you called for what you actually do while you are used since so many decades to see that only done when the opposite side kills or murders, and your actions only vaguely described.
Not in the least it is. I’m sorry, but this is rubbish.
Sorry, but I don’t believe in so called “polls” as I don’t believe in “statistics” to be able to give a reliable because completely correct and independent report on whatever. Not to speak about the fact that you need to make it a separate issue in your study curriculum if you ever want to be able to interpret “statistics”. Otherwise the door to misinterpretation is already open before you touch it.
And what have “the last thousands of years” to do with this?
Does this means to say that Europe was overall anti-semitic “the last thousands of years”? Which parts of Europe do you refer to then?
Salaam. A
I think you should do that. Prepare for a laugh but also prepare for some vulgar language and the greatest sillyness one can imagine to take place on a message board with a standard and quality like this one. Have fun 
Salaam. A
Well to be honest, no I dont or perhaps to put it more accurately French Arabs arent who come to mind when I hear of the perfidious French, and I’m pretty sure that saying the “French” or the “Europeans” are anti-semitic is too broadbrush to have much meaning.
It seems to me on my reading that anti-semitic violence in Europe is almost exclusively perpetrated by young muslims in an extension of the broader Israeli-Arab conflict rather then a genuine upswell in general European anti-semitism. If you were to say that there is a deepening of anti-semitism amongst muslims I’d agree with you but I really havent seen any evidence that supports the notion of such a wave of hostility amongst the wider European community. This issue seems to get muddied into the water with questions of attitudes to Israel which are a different matter.
I am also curious as to why the alarmism seems to be coming from American Jewish organisations rather then from the French Jewish community who as the victims would presumably have the most cause to complain. Furthermore in a number of places such as my BBC cite and my ‘Nation’ cite from the earlier thread I have seen French Jews explictily reject the histrionic fearmongering put forth from the US and ask that American Jews mind their own business. And histrionic is the appropriate adjective imo for the comparison made by the American Jewish Congress of modern France with Vichy France which is not only historically ignorant but outright insulting. The cynic in me suspects a gigantic red herring and smear campaign.
Have you seen any more detailed statistics for violent incidents or a longer time series? Its difficult to draw any conclusion from the two years you quoted which suggest overall incidents (most of which are graffiti) are up but that major violent incidents are pretty much unchanged. What are the numbers of dead and wounded from attacks? How does it compare with attacks on muslims in Europe or blacks in the US? In short what is the context.
Perhaps. Another way of looking at it though is that we have the world and its opinion of the Israeli-Arab conflict. And then isolated off to one side like lepers we have Israel which does, and the US which doesnt quite understand the degree of isolation from the majority of mankind that it holds on the issue. Its possible that the twin lepers are correct. And perhaps not.
This is the reason we are talking about “new” anti-Semitism. The Arab population in Europe is growing in leaps and bounds. This is a new demographic to Europe, but what a lot of Jews are worried about is that this opinion shift will be permanent. Arabs outnumber Jews in Europe; many of them are new immigrants; the Holocaust ended 60 years ago. The popular view now can be that Israel is a racist apartheid state who is committing genocide on a minority population. None of these things are true. There are a lot of states in which the situation is much worse than in Israel. A lot of what Israel does is perfectly reasonable taken the violence they experience. But Israel gets criticized for being Israel.
Is this regular Jacques Europe’s fault? No, and nobody is blaming him. But there is a “new” Europe here that a lot of people are concerned about. Most Muslim immigrants are people just like anybody else – hard workers trying to make a new life for themselves. Some, though, carry some patently false anti-Semitic views which are prevalent in their home countries and the Arab press: Protocols of the Elders of Zion, blood libels, etc. Since there is a population of people with these views, they sometimes carry into the European press.
A good example of this would be the Jenin raid. Here was, in retrospect, a perfectly legitimate raid on legitimate targets performed in a fashion to limit civilian casualties. The immediate reporting was unclear; horrific war crimes accusations were made and quickly splashed over every front page. Europe was especially guilty of this: every ludicrous utterance by a PA representative was given press without confirmation despite Israeli denials. Over 500 had been killed, Israelis used children as human shields, Israelis carted off mounds of bodies to mask the death toll. The ubiquitous condemnations and UN resolutions followed. A UN fact finding mission found that the Palestinian death toll was around 50 (exactly what the Israelis had estimated – the Israelis lost 33), there was far less damage than claimed (10% of the area versus claimed nearly 100%), etc. The hundreds of innocents buried under rubble were revised down to one. Retractions, if they were published, were put in the back of the newspapers. To this day you can go to pro-Palestinian websites and read about the Jenin “massacre” or “holocaust” and atrocities of that day.
You may think that none of this is anti-Semitic. It isn’t on the surface. But when it represents a trend, when it is ordinary and mundane to accuse Israel of these kind of actions without confirmation and then never offer retractions, then I start to complain. There is no legitimate reason to criticize Israel to this level while letting every other country in a similar situation off scot-free. There is no reason to spend so many resources on the plight of the Palestinian when worse situations in some parts of Europe, not to mention Africa and Asia, go completely without mention.
edwino you must recognise your own bias tho’, for example, if you cared to read the reports on the Jenin raid by AI, HRW or B’Tselem you’d see that not neraly enough was done to protect Palestinian civilians and Palestinian civilians WERE used as human shields by the IDF, as for the justifaction for the raid, it was a punitive raid carried out as the latest suicide bomber came from the town.
The Assesemnt that Israel is a racist or appartheid stae may seem unfair to you, but you must also recognise that it does not come out of thin air and that there is a lot of racism in Israel’s policies (and I’m not saying I agree with the assemnt that Israel is a racist or appartehid state). One of the most active proponents I know of this view is a Jewish citizen of Israel who spent most of his childhood in Israel (at the moment he is studying for his PhD in Maths in the US).
This post pretty much sums up the difference between the reflexive viewpoints of Europeans and North Americans - as a generalization.
If people in Canada were attacking Jews, that would be a “Canadian” problem - irrespective of the ethnicity of the attackers. If Arabs in France are attacking Jews (and I have no idea if they are or not, I just assume that your facts are accurate), then it is not a “French” problem - the obvious inference being that people of Arabic background are not really “French”, whether they are citizens or not.
It is little snippets like this that convinces me that race is still a big issue in Europe, and adds a gloss of legitimacy on accusations of anti-semitism (remembering, as is stated above, that ‘both Jews and Arabs are semites’, and so if Arabs are not “French”, then presumably Jews aren’t, either).
I may be wrong but I think UselessGit merely brought the Arab ethnicity of the attackers to point out that anti-Semitism is a wrong term because both attacker and victim are Semitics. Why he felt a need to make this point I have no idea, since, even if correct, it does nothing to address the wrongdoings (call it Judeophobic then if you will). Neither do I think Jews are normally seen as another race in the way that perhaps Arab immigrants are seen, since they over the centuries have been so assimilated into the general public as to be today quite indistinguishable (unlike Arabs). Heck! Useless is just scared git-less because the Icelandic national prophetess (vølven) has just prophesised major tension in Israel for 2004 (as if this should be something new. She also prophesised that Arafat becomes gravely ill and will be replaced by a very compromise seeking person. We can hope.).
Of course it’s legitimate to be even severely critical of Israel without being anti-Semitic, and I do not believe the vast majority of those criticising Israel do so because of anti-Semitic views. However it’s also clear for me, that criticism of Israel has moved from the rational to the irrational; that the criticism is not proportional to her wrongdoings especially compared to that of other, less criticized, nations, and that certain elements of the left wing, wherefrom most of the political based critique originates, have crossed the line (as when Swedish demonstrators threatening stops people on the street and demand to know whether they’re Jewish. Or British journalist refuse to read letters from Jews. How about that for the SDMB? A little yellow star to mark our Jewism. I sadly have no Jewish genes, but as a disgraceful Jew-lover I’m of course very beautiful)
The “new” European (which I believe is shared equally by America and Canada) anti-Semitism is new in the sense that those guilty of hatred are not the same old crackpots, but new crackpots. It is somewhat interesting to note that most of what is of anti-Semitism in Europe has largely moved from whackoes on the extreme right wing to the left wing and certain Muslim groups. It’s even more interesting to note how the very same left wing is always the first to brand political opponents with accusations of Nazism. I wonder when they’ll get around to shine that highly developed critical light on their navel and expulse those disgusting elements from among themselves. As for the Muslim elements. I find it must disturbing that apparently the anti-Semitism is not lessened in second or third generation immigrants. On the contrary it’s often found that second generation immigrants are more radicalized than first. A result of catastrophic failed integration or too successful integration one may wonder.
I think the EU made a major screw up withholding that report. The public is not babies that should spoon-fed information. Release it and let people debate and decide for themselves if they find it trustworthy.
First off, “antisemitism” never referred to Arabs. It means and has always meant Jew-hating. No need to invent more words or change meanings.
Alde, you may not be aware of the antisemitic acts but they are there. Just because I don’t see racism against Blacks in America (and I do not) does not mean that I do not know that it exists.
Also Alde, I will not overburden this board with a history of European antisemitism. Read “Constantine’s Sword” or other texts if you want an education. Suffice it to say that Hitler merely brought industrial efficiency to already extant mindsets of more than a millenium. History doesn’t just stop. It morphs.
MC, I have no issue with harsh criticism of Israeli policies. I readily acknowledge that some points are even valid. I have problems with things that are so unfair and one-sided that they seem as if they must be willfully ignorant of reality. The Far Right Jew-hater is indeed marginalized in the main; the Left side is more insidious and is hinted at by comments that imply that Arab violence against Jews is just an extension of the Arab-Israeli conflict and not really antisemitism…
MC
I humbly submit that you missed the point of my post.
You may dispute some of my points about the Jenin raid – yes I have bias as does everyone, and yes I will acknowledge that it was a brutal raid carried out in a dense area and some rules of war were shoved aside – but the fact still remains that it has widely been reported as a massacre or a holocaust, when it was not. There were many lies reported – call them misinformation, call it bad reporting. The point of my post was that these facts were reported mostly because it was an Israeli raid. A Russian raid on an urban concentration of Checnyan insurgents wouldn’t have merited the international outcry of Jenin.
I like Malthus’s post. There is a subtle European racism at foot here – the militant French Arab’s viewpoints are as French as Chirac’s. Just because European antisemitism is of an Arab nature makes it no less antisemitism or no less European. That is why it is “new.”
Those who have anti-Zionist views wish to have their viewpoints confirmed by the press. In the free market, they find press that will pander to their viewpoints, and thus reinforce them. There is a positive feedback of sorts here. The basis of this positive feedback doesn’t lie in the old European antisemitism that has been around forever – the Holocaust has largely IMHO made that unpalatable. The basis does lie in antisemitism, however, and it would serve Europe well to recognize it, because the outcome looks similar.
It is fine to criticize the occupation and wish for its end. But if you find yourself denying Israelis the simple rights we wish upon the rest of humanity – the right to live in peace and security and the right to self-determine their government – you have been caught in the cycle of the new European antisemitism.
DSeid,
I happen to be on a constant base in contact with Europe and with what “lives” there, even when I’m not there myself. I have relatives there from my mother’s side and I am also in contact with EU muslims. And I think EU’ers posting here confirm my observations.
I asked you to give examples of “thousand years of anti-semitism” in Europe = to which nations or societies do you refer when making this claim.
(Everyone is informed about the Nazis. That is not what we are talking about.)
Salaam. A
A primer for you in the history of Jew-hating.
I agree with everything you wrote, with the exception of this. I got the impression the UselessGit brought up the Arab ethnicity of the attackers to make the point that it was absurd to blame the “French” for anti-Semitism. The old non-sequitur about “anti-Semitism” being the wrong term for Jew hatred (why this matters has never been explained to me, and anyway, it is of course quite wrong) was just an aside.
Certainly, Jews are quite assimilated and, reasoning logically, could assume that this assimilation would make a difference - that they would be considered “French” or “German”, having deep family roots in those countries. Unfortunately, the history of the last century indicates that such assumptions should not be made lightly. The Jews of many parts of Europe (particularly, I might point out, Germany) were just as assimilated in 1939 as they are today, and yet that fact helped them not at all.
I am willing to believe that all this has changed, and that Europeans are radically different now than they were then on this question. I am also willing to believe that a centuries-old history of Jew hatred has been artificially marginalized and discredited by the exposure of the Holocaust, and that, given an issue on which Europeans can feel righteous about (thather than ashamed), it will come bubbling out of the background to colour their interpretation of events - all the more powerfully because of the suppressed shame over a Nazi past. Hence, the wildly exaggerated “Sharon equals Hitler” comparisons. The thinking is perhaps that the existence of evil, Hitler-esque Jews (read: Sharon) lessens the annoying residual guilt that Europeans feel, or are told they are supposed to feel, over the past (speaking, of course, as a gross generalization).
Which to believe changes depending on who is arguing. I think the latter has some truth in it; I also think that some Israeli apologists use this argument to deflect criticism. It is not an either-or solution; both could be true at the same time.
Certainly, I know what most Jews in NA think on the issue, rightly or wrongly - even those harshly critical of Israel. It could best be summed up by the vague apprehension that “the leopard doesn’t change its spots”.
edwino, you must apply the same standards both ways, if denying the right to security and self-detrimnation to the Israelis (which is something I do not object to, though this cannot simply be used as a catch-all to justify any action) is racist, you must relaize thaty anybody supporting the occupation is racist as they deny the right of security and self-detimrnation to the Palestinians.
The problem is by throwing arounf ‘anti-semitic’ as a political term it’s meaning is diluted until it carries no weight. The hypocrisy of somone like Ariel Sharon accusing Europeans of racsim does not aid Israel’s cause at all.
What do you mean with leap and bounds? There has been a steady flow of arabs to Europe for a long time, due to colonisation by France and England and due to that many arab countries have problem leading to refugees, as well as more ‘normal’ immigration. As far as I know this isn’t a ‘problem’, like your use of words seem to imply, and it hasn’t afaik increased significantly recently. This seems to me to be a standard racist cath phrase, we’re beeing ‘invaded’, immigration is out of control, they will take your jobs and women… well, you know what I mean.
From what I have read, the jews that are worried mainly seem to be the ones in North America. Not French jews or Swedish jews, who would not only be the ones affected, but would also be in a better position to know if this was actually happening. I don’t think Sharon will be unbiased on this subject, and frankly I have no respect for the mans opinion anyway since I consider him a right-wing extremist. If the moderate jews, living in Europe, would express concerns about this I would pay attention. When Sharon or some zionist extremists in North America does, I won’t.
That is not the popular view, that is a silly straw man. A popular view would be “Israel are committing human rights violations, defying UN resolutions and killing Palestinian civilians in their hunt for terrorists”. That view is pretty accurate in my opinion. Yes, Israel gets critisised for being Israel in a sense, we tend to hold them to a higher standard since they are a democratic and wealthy nation. We don’t expect a poverty-ridden dictatorship to live up to the same standards. It would be fair to, but unrealistic.
Yes some Muslim (not Arab anymore? I thought we were talking about arabs…) carry patently false views. Just as some Americans, some Swedes and probably a couple of people from Lichtenstein. And I agree that we should put a lot more money into education and integration, even if it means raising taxes, I am sure that was your point… By the way, I regard the crazy idea that there is a ‘God’ to be patently false, hopefully we can cure this delusion which seems widespread.
When people increasingly critisise Israel politics, there is no chance that it is because they don’t agree with Israel policy? When people critisise Bushs policy it’s really because they hate America… right? 
Sure, people who hate jews are probably going to critisise Israel, people who hate Americans are going to critisise the US, that doesn’t mean that because you critisise US or Israel you hate Americans or Jews.
You are not empowered to decide what people care about. Is it unfair to hold Israel to a higher standard, I don’t think so. They have more power, more knowledge and more freedom then many other countries, they should be held to a higher standard. Of course I would critisise a democracy more for human rights violations then I would a fascist state or dictatorship.
I’m sorry, but you aren’t empowered to decide what people or nations spend their resources on either. I can’t think of a people that are worse off in Europe then the palestinians at the moment, maybe you could give some examples? As far as I am concerned, way too little is being done about ALL the peoples that are suffering and I agree that way too little money is being spent on it and would support tax raises to increase it. Once again this is what you are suggesting, right?
I have a personal perspective on this though. My mother is politically on the extreme left, she is a member of both the UN organisation here as well as the Palestine Group. She participates in all the demonstrations, protests, debates, seminars etc etc and is extremely active. Half of her friends are arabs, mainly palestinians. I argue with her about Israel/Palestine a lot because she has a very un-nuansced opinion of it, pretty much the anti-thesis of Sharons. When she talks about Israels unprovoked aggressions, I defend them and say that Palestinians are as much to blame for the problems. However, never have I heard her or any of her political friends say anything that could by a sane person be construed as anti-semitic. The critisism is directed at the policy of the Israel government and Sharon, not the Israeli people and their situation, who they have quite a lot of empathy for.
Now this is not the first thread about this alleged anti-semitism in Europe I have read here, but hopefully it will be the last.
Stoneburg You are not empowered to hope for this to be the last thread on this subject.
You and I both know there’s a growing of anti-semitism in Europe. In your and in mine country too. Yes, mainly by muslims.
Teachers in the Netherlands are afraid to talk about the holocaust. Why? Because they are threatened by their muslim students. [and we all know what threats can do. A Dutch teacher was shot in the head by a [muslim] student yesterday]
An example of anti-semitism in another part of Europe, you’ll find here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3388105.stm