You do not seen to see that this is kind of the problem.
Thousands of well-meaning, dedicated people work on or support organizations critical of Israel. Yet it all seems so … focussed. One quite small country is singled out for lots of attention; other committing far worse abuses rate no mention at all.
The pattern of the HGOs is repeated by the UN. Israel breaks more UN resolutions than any other country - in part, because more are passed concerning Israel than any other country; and yet, Israel is a rather small nation, not (objectively) the worst on the planet.
I hear your points; no-one is in a position to tell others what they must care about … but surely, you must acknowledge that by the same token, if all they care about is this one country, it raises the question as to “why”.
Moreover, while these well-meaning people seem to be holding a higher standard for Israel, they seem to be positively lacking in any standard whatsoever for their antagonists.
Is it mere coincidence that this country is so very much disliked and singled out? Is the fact that this country is made up of Jews - a people who, a couple of generations ago, faced a grim fate on the continent that is now the origins of this critisism - a mere coincidence, having no impact whatsoever on the current situation?
Maybe. But it is surely not an issue likely to go away by ignoring it or ridiculing it away.
Urgh! My superb and eloquent post was eaten by SD! This is but a poor and hurried rehash.
. . . . .
You know a Swede by his willingness to increase taxes. ;j
It is a problem if it means a higher level of anti-Semitism, which some seem to think. Well that’s what we’re here to debate, waving it away as a no-issue is hardly helpful. Whether it has increased significantly recently, depends on your definition of recently. Significantly in the last decade, probably not. Significantly in the last half century, probably yes. The rest of the paragraph is entirely of your own invention.
I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that Jewish organizations throughout Europe has been trying to warn of a rising anti-Semitism. That’s certainly the case in Denmark I’m ashamed to admit. Where the Jewish community, after having started to keep count on the number of assaults and threats, has registered a rise of several hundred percentage in just a few years. There are so many examples. Today Jews enter certain Muslim dominated neighbourhoods at this risk of their lives. *“If you insist, as a Jew, to walk around Nørrebro [large area in central Copenhagen], it will very likely mean trouble.” Chief inspector Per Larsen Nov 2003 * Recently some Jewish children were forced by a school principle to quit the school because it caused too much unrest with the immigrant children. Jewish schools, neighbourhoods and synagogues are under constant police surveillance because of regular bomb threats. Young Jews are in greater number starting to move to Israel because they see no future in Denmark. Etc. etc. One can hope the situation is better in Sweden, I doubt it – likely you’re just not taking the problem serious. Certainly France, with the largest Jewish population in Europe, has started to take it serious.
No strawman. This is indeed a popular view in large part of society, and especially on the left wing. Also what was almost agreed to in Durban. Try putting “Israel and apartheid” into google.
Nobody is saying all critique of Israel is anti-Semitism. Still it baffles me why they think so much time and energy should be spend on this particular (minuscule even, considering the number of people directly involved) problem. By your reason Switzerland or Sweden should be the most criticised nations on earth – since they have the best democracies and we should expect better. By all reason the dictatorship should get more of the critique since their faults are that much worse. Also I think a very large part of the critique is quite unproductive. Taking to the streets with Jews=Nazis banners aren’t going to change anyone’s mind.
[QUOTE=gum
Teachers in the Netherlands are afraid to talk about the holocaust. Why? Because they are threatened by their muslim students. [and we all know what threats can do. A Dutch teacher was shot in the head by a [muslim]
student yesterday]
[/QUOTE]
Amazing how you can twist facts, gum. I am really stunned.
So you say there was a Muslim boy of 17 who shot a teacher in the head because he (the boy) is an anti-semite?
Really? I didn’t see or hear anything that referred to neither of this.
I saw however references to the fact that this particular school seems to be known for having a lot of problems with many students.
Now I know why, since you made it clear: they must be all Muslims threatening their teachers because the teach them about the holocaust.
I’m sorry to say so, but I think your fantasy runs a bit too hard away with you.
Forgot to say: the article you came up with and that by miracle shows up under my last posts (must be the new features) refers to Hungarian situations.
Can someone tell me why I feel so tempted to start a thread about the worldwide anti-Muslim anti-Arab wave in non Muslim nations who are considered to be part of or largely influenced by “the West”?
I have a question:
Why does it seems that there is such a commotion in the USA about so called “anti semetism in Europe” while it has less to do with anti-semitism then with Sharon PR?
Why all these efforts by non-EU’ers here to sell the Sharon/Israel/Zionist lobby-message while clearly EU’ers posting here tell them that they have a completely misinformed view on it?
One member even dragged a completely unreal and false idea in it that somehow Europe in its whole would feel “responsible for the Nazi past”.
I’m sorry, but maybe some part of the German population can generate such feelings, but Germany isn’t Europe.
Because that’s the point of every thread you ever get involved in, isn’t it? Please see my note in the OP, the Us need not be the yardstick for all discussion, we are talking about the EU, you’ve managed to drag Bush or the US into almost every post, does the dyslexia cause you to stray from the topic, too?
You are right. I do noth think that this is a problem at all. I don’t think it is a problem that a small group of well meaning people chose to focus on one particular cause, I think it is a problem that an incredibly large group of people don’t care about the problems at all. If someone says “I donated 100 euros for food for Eritrea” I’m not going to say “I can’t believe you would waste money on Eritrea when the people of Angola are much worse off”. They are working for a good cause and it would be incredibly presumptious and arrogant of me to claim that.
It can not possibly be “the problem” that some people are working to improve the living conditions for a specific group of people instead of another group. The reasoning is absurd.
In my experience, and as is the case with my mother, this isn’t how it works. Yes, one of the organisations she is a member of (and I might be too, she probably signed me up), is dedicated mainly to Palestine, but the sort of people that are active here are also usually active in other causes. They are interested in international politics and helping epople in general, not just this specific case. Caring about Palestine doesn’t preclude you from caring for Angola or Eritrea. Once again, to me, the problem is the vast amount of people who don’t care about either.
Ad hoc ergo propter hoc?
As I said, I acknowledge that there are people that hate jews. I don’t know any, and if I meet any I won’t like them, but they exist. However, being something of a, I dunno, jew-liker* myself, I don’t have any problems finding reasons to worry about and dislike Israel and its policy.
Indeed. If Sweden and say Libya were both found committing the same human rights violations, I would be so much more critical of Sweden that it would be off the chart. The more you have, the higher the standards are that I will hold you to. Makes total sense to me. I’m not going to praise a policeman in Sweden for just beating up a suspect a little, just because whatever-goes-for-police in Afghanistan would have beaten him up much worse.
True, the issue will only go away once the extremists finally stfu, which is never going to happen. Obviously I am not ignoring it (even though I should), and I haven’t ridiculed it yet (even though I want to).
I like jewish culture and many of my favorite authors/artists/people are jewish
Aldebaraan has posted 9 times in this thread and only in two of those does he mention the US. 2 out of 9 is hardly “almost every post”.
Also, the US is quite relevant because:
We need a yardstick for the EU
US policy is extremely connected to Israel policy
The allegations of anti-semitism are mainly from Americans
Making unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks is bad. You may not like Aldebaraan but that’s not very interesting to the debate, so please just open another Pit Thread for that
Point 1, I disagree, I don’t see how the US could possibly compare to individual European countries in a loose federation.
Point 2, I disagree, the US does not decide its foreign policy based on Israel’s, as much as Europeans would like to believe.
Ponit 3, No they’re not, please listen to the NPR piece if possible and finally,
Point about Alde taken, but I think the whole “Pit Aldebaran” thing is just so passe
It’s a debate about relative sucjects. The EU has a lot of anti-semitism compared to… what? That’s where we need a non-European yardstick and the US is a good candidate for several reasons.
US is the #1 ally of Israel and of immense importance. The Isarael economy, military and very existance depends on the US. That’s what I am saying. I don’t think that US decides ints policy based on Israel to a vast extent, but the reverse is probably true.
And all the threads about EU anti-semitism have been started by people located in the US, most of the people on this board that chime in and say that anti-semitism is on teh rise in EU are located in the US, that is what I ment.
There is no doubt that anti-Semitic attacks are on the rise in Europe. In France, for example, the reported numbers only tell part of the story. Many victims have alleged that the police discourage reporting incidents at all.
In France, and other nations in Europe, they are undergoing a demographic overhaul. The rising, but mostly poor and undereducated, Muslim population is responsible for most of the anti-Semitic incidents in question. The French, inter alia, have unwisely thought that a policy of appeasement over the years would buy them some currency with their new citizens.
Recently, the face-covering controversy in France showed how all that support could evaporate in one big “VOILA!” Chirac has angered the Muslim Brotherhood and Martyr’s Brigade, among others. They don’t much care if an infidel was once helpful.
There is a hardening in the European intellectual culture to Isreali deaths. The depictions of Sharon as a blood drinking Jew with Palestinian babies as snacks – an award winning British cartoon – is one symptom of the overall climate. There is a “redefinition” of anti-Semitism going on, one which allows a mother of two to blow herself up around civilians without some people getting particularly upset about it. Then, it allows one to view overall Israeli policy out of the context of this assault by human bomb. Supporting the “liberation of the Palestinians” sounds great, especially if you only listen to half the story. That “liberation of Palestine” means “end of Israel” to most of the radical Islamists matters.
The idea that Sharon’s policies have made peace impossible is refuted by the mere fact that Sharon replaced earlier leaders more willing to make concessions who failed to reach an accomodation as well. The level of hatred for Sharon, perhaps justified if one lived in certain Palestinian refugee camps about 20 years ago, is all out of proportion to his actual role in preventing a peace deal. Um, news flash, the bombers are preventing a peace deal – intentionally. They issue statements to that effect when deals near conclusion. Moving Israeli settlers, or tearing down a wall, makes stopping the Islamist religious nutjobs look easy.
They blew up a mother of two to make a point, and she went willingly to her death. That is crazy, totally insane. Moreover, the strategy doesn’t work. Finally, I’ll wager it doesn’t get you to heaven.
Your ignorance of the history and severity of European antisemitism is telling. I presume that such has been very lacking from any class in history that you have taken at any level of education in Arab institutions or since. I doubt that you have been as well protected from information on libelous charges against Jews since they are well broadcast in Arab media and part of curriculum in some parts.
Massacres. Forced conversions or death. Or both if you were not believed sincere. More massacres. Forbidden from working in any guild. Confiscation of resources. Declared property. Expulsions. More massacres. More expulsions. Read some Martin Luther tracts on the Jews (after they failed to flock to his new religion). England expelled the Jews. So did Portugal. So did Spain. Italy invented the ghetto as a place to wall the Jews in.
Treatment in the Islamic world was tolerant by comparison, and given the treatment often imposed upon the dhimmis, that is saying something.
So yes, when the focus upon Israel is one sided and disproportionate, one wonders if it is merely because Israel is held up as a Western democracy and one can’t expect the same standards from those savage Arabs (I am sarcastic here Alde, but you see in this thread that implicit POV being expressed) or if some other factor is at play …
The ‘misconduct’ of which the article writes, was the student’s threats to his teachers to tell ‘no more stories about killed jews’.
You might as well know: I’ve spend years on teaching muslim women to speak Dutch and get them out of their isolation. Lately I find it very hard to feel any compassion for a people, who’s leaders teach you how to beat your wife without leaving marks.
Mustafa is an imam at the mosque in the southern Spanish town of Fuengirola:
In his book, Mustafa wrote that in disciplining a disobedient wife: “The blows should be concentrated on the hands and feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body.”
Short on time, I’m afriad, but came across this earlier and thought it might be useful for lighthearted comparative purposes. Seems “Europe” is a little ahead of the US, or is it . . . http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106094,00.html
“Some 43 percent of Americans believe Israel is a threat to world peace, according to a poll presented Wednesday by a Jewish group, but many more are concerned about North Korea, Iraq and Iran.”
presented by a Jewish group and it’s on Fox. Must be accurate!
I have never accused anyone of this. I fully support the right of Palestinians to live in peace and security and the right to self-determine their government. Just not at the expense of Israelis. I have been calling for Israeli unilateral withdrawal for the better part of two years.
My problem is exactly the same as yours, at heart. Antisemitism is when any action becomes justified just because it is against the Israelis. I am not accusing anyone posting in this thread of doing that. But when the UN and the European press accepts that it is the right of Palestinians to march themselves into pizza parlors and blow themselves up amidst women and children, that becomes antisemitism. When it becomes a legitimate debate point to harp on the illegitimacy of the existence of Israel, when the PA sits on a moderate Arab media outlet (al-Arabiyah) to describe any Palestinian killed by the IDF as “martyred”, then I start to consider the roots of European anti-Zionistm. There is a near monolithic block of thought about Israel through the Arab World. For 35 years, they have done their damndest to spread that thought around the world. This has now been facilitated by a sympathetic population influx into Europe.
My personal view is that it has become more frenzied over the past two years. Palestinians knew what they had to do to get the media’s attention – blow shit up and incur Israeli wrath. They did and it worked. A funny thing has happened, though. It has suddenly become immensely distasteful to claim suicide bombing as a form of legitimate uprising, ever since September 2001. In the past year, another funny thing has happened – Sharon has pretty much started to set the border for a Palestinian state, and the border as it happens goes closer to the Green Line than one would expect out of a unilateral action. This has led to quite a grasping at straws (like Qorei’s call for a binational state), and more virulent antisemitic-type attacks out of the Arab World. They (the Palestinian leadership and the Arab leaders who support them) are losing any grasp they had at legitimacy – Israel is settling the situation by itself without any of their input whatsoever.
Stoneburg, I believe you took a lot of my post in the wrong fashion. Malthus kindly covered a lot of this, but let me add some stuff.
The rate is irrelevant. I take back “leaps and bounds” if indeed it is a steady flow. I have no cite that says otherwise right now. I never used the word “problem” and my exact point was that Europe was changing. I never said if this was a overall good or bad thing; the antisemitism that I think is fomented in certain young Arab populations is certainly a bad thing but I hope that it is just temporary. My point is exactly opposite what you accuse me of – pointing out a demographic shift is not racist. Denying that the new population influx is “European” is, though. (i.e. Antisemism in Europe is from Muslims, not Europeans.)
I can give you many other quotes from European Jews concerned about the rise of antisemitism in Europe.
Note what I said:
The popular view now can be that Israel is a racist apartheid state who is committing genocide on a minority population. As Malthus said, it is a view adopted by a UN conference. It is routinely reported as such. But I didn’t mean say it is the most common view, I just said that it can be a popular view.
You really haven’t understood a single thing I’ve posted. I’ve said again and again that legitimate criticism of Israel is appreciated. It is when Israel becomes an idee fixe, it becomes the issue above all else. It is when every raid and every statement is met with waves of disapproval, when there are much worse problems many other places in the world.
Mmmm I dunno, from reports that I have seen, parts of the Balkans are still pretty rotten. When they were worse off than Palestine, it took a long while before NATO under prodding from the US decided to intervene. The Cyprus situation is finally coming to an end, but I didn’t see mass rallies in Europe to end Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus. Do you consider Checnya Europe?
Good for you. Good for your mother. I have never implied that people with your (or her) kind of views are antisemitic. It is the people on one hand decrying Israeli actions in the territories while on the other praising Palestinian suicide bombing, it is calling for an end to the State of Israel, etc. etc. Get it?
I think you are missing my point, or perhaps you hear it and don’t agree with it. Maybe an analogy will help.
Imagine if you will that you are a gay male. Imagine as well that the “hot button” topic of the day was pedophilia. Imagine as well that, for some reason, every single news item, organization, NGO, and socially-aware person was up in arms over this one topic, but with a twist - they all, for some reason, are only concerned with homosexual pedophilia. Not one ever so much as mentions that non-homosexual pedophilia exists, much less that, in fact, the abuse of girls is just as big a problem (if not bigger) than abuse of boys.
Now, further imagine that the countries in which these organizations and persons live have a legacy of centuries of anti-homosexual prejudice. Would you, or would you not, consider that the rather single-minded focus of all of these well-meaning people on a legitimate problem just may have something to do with that legacy? Just possibly? Even though, if pressed on the point, those do-gooders could well respond that they like homosexuals just fine, thank you; that homosexual pedophilia is a terrible thing, scarring the lives of many young boys; that anti-gay prejudice is, really, a thing of the past, particularly in the enlightened, intellectual circles in which they move … that many gay thinkers are equally concerned about the problem of pedophilia.
But still, it is a bit nagging that everyone cares so much about homosexual pedophilia, and for some strange reason cannot find any time to worry about the abuse of girls. I would imagine, if you were gay, you might find that circumstance somewhat suspicious - which is not the same as saying that pedophilia, hetero or homo, is not a problem deserving of concern! But where this “concern” appears to be totally one-sided, it starts to look as if it is, perhaps indirectly, more of a weapon in an on-going and quite unplesant cause than a genuine, legitimate expression of compassion. Particularly if it is clear and obvious that some at least are using this “cause” as a mere excuse to go gay-bashing – and the do-gooders who are adimant in their denials of anti-gay prejudice refuse to acknowledge that this problem even exists.
Wouldn’t that worry you - if you happened to be gay yourself?
Now, admittedly the analogy is by no means perfect. However, the differences are all to the disadvantage of the nati-Zionists. For one thing, although I have no idea of the numbers involved, certainly the purportion of homosexual pedophiles to hetero is by no means as outrageously skewed as the purportion of human rights violations carried out in the rest of the world to those carried out in Israel. Secondly, it would be beyond the bounds of reason that some anti-homosexual pedophilia crusaders would actually make excuses for heterosexual pedophiles, or even find their actions admirable. Moreover, it is hard to imagine the UN barring homosexuals from participating in the Human Rights Committee, on suspicion of pedophilia, while at the same time electing a known heterosexual pedophile as Chairman of that committee; and yet, Israel is barred and Lybia sits as Chair!
So you see, as you are fond of Latin maxims, Res Ipsa Loquitur.
