The "new" European anti-Semitism

Great Debates
121

WinstonSmith: There was a controversial exhibition that was wrecked by an Israeli ambassador, and this is proof of anti-semitism? I never saw it, but here’s been plenty of controversial exhibitions in this country. You don’t like it? The Israeli ambassador doesn’t like it? Tough shit, it’s called freedom of speech and freedom of expression, that means you don’t have to like everything. The piece was named “Snow White and the Maddness of Truth”, which seems to indicate to me that the creater didn’t intend it as a glorification of anything but rather a statement about how crazy things have become. If it was a picture of an Israeli soldier I doubt the “outrage” would have been very different. So stop with the suffering act please.

First you claim that a “catastrophical” amount of swedes don’t believe in the holocaust, then you post links that claim that sweden is the least anti-semitic country in the world. You seem to have some sort of problem with the left in Europe, considering your invectives, so far I have yet to see one rational point. In fact, it would seem like this thread has started to evolve into a bash-the-left and pro-Israel festival. Partisan bitching and whining doesn’t really get you anything, other then an opportunity to feel connected to people already sharing your view.

I’m not going to take the opposing side, as stupid as I find the extreme pro-Israel side, the other one is just as dumb. Let me know if anything new or unexpected happens.

122

Sigh.

So much for my effort, eh?

Stoneberg, please read my last few posts. There is really no cause for anger here. Chill dude. Winston has been very clear that he was presenting some conflicting data and trying to be fair in his assessment of it. That’s why he said “however …” and stated

And continued in another post with an incident that to Jewish ears seems like they really don’t quite get it afterall. You are welcome to not understand why placing that work in a show linked to The Holocaust is considered highly offensive to many Jews. Or to believe that it shouldn’t be and that the Israeli ambassador was out of line. I really am just wanting to make sure that the differing POVs understand each other here. Is there something about your position that I have missed in my recap? Some significant arguments that I failed to include? If so then please clarify. If you still really think that my concern over antisemitism in Europe is just an “extreme pro-Israel” stance then so be it.

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As my articles noted, the problem must be analyzed country-by-country, incident-by-incident, and most importantly political climate-by-political climate.

If you want to compare the United States and the anti-Semitism here to Europe, feel free to do so. For one thing, not counting major terrorist incidents like September 11, 2001, attacks on Jews are fairly uncommon, per capita let’s say, in the United States.

Unlike many nations in Europe, the United States allows the pro-Israeli position to be heard. This is often spun as a Jewish conspiracy to control the media. That’s Exhibit One in anti-Semitism – IMO.

Blood libel, already documented, is another. That would probably not make it into a US cartoon whether it depicted Ariel Sharon or Yassir Arafat. Surprising, as the Brits are noted for, ahem, good taste.

The French model of government-housing a huge immigrant population has been tried in the US. It doesn’t work. Without getting sidetracked on a welfare issue: the key point is that the new Islamic population feels unassimilated into French culture. This is due in part, but only in part, to Islamic “standoffishness.” In many cases the young Muslims claim is that French employers will not hire young Muslims.

In the United States there are many self-employed, or just employed Muslims. There is no major Muslim unemployment problem that vastly outstrips the overall numbers.

I hate to mention it, but as noted, the US does not have a longterm history of killing Jews. I know that the traditional hatred for Jews is everywhere, and we imported much of the European version wholecloth when we moved here, but we have a Holocaust Museum – sans holocaust.

Moreover, importantly, the US has always done a passable job with waves of immigrants for over one hundred years. As the article on Greece highlited, a homogeneous culture is far more likely to have problems with new immigration than somewhere like, say, my neighborhood.

I would not be kidding when I say that if only my neighborhood survived the next global catastrophe would have every significant human genetic grouping – save north-of-the-Arctic-Circle-people – in existence today. We have Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Prots, Cats, “Euro, Slavic, Germanic,” (me, for example) Asian, Arab, Indian, Native American, Hispanic mostly, but you name it.

That’s America in many parts of the US. Europe is also like that in some urban areas. The overall mix, IMO, is more heterogeneous in the US. Again, most importantly, the mix has been heterogeneous for a long time. Black and white have been not getting along successfully for, what, four hundred years? Sure, my ancestors were sipping a mint julep – no, wait, boarding a boat to leave the Continent – but somehow we built the New World together, along with the Chinese who built the railroads, the Irish who “need not apply” but finally made it big, etc.

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Stoneburg:
I did in fact not make any claim that the exhibit, by itself, was proof of any anti-Semitism just that I though it in very bad taste. And perhaps it’s, as has already been argued in this thread, another example of the one-sidedness of the critique; which may indicate anti-Semitism.

I already did address the issue of free speech. If you find my arguments unconvincing, you should try to say why, not just restate it’s a free-speech thing. By the way, do you remember any controversial pro-Israel exhibits?

I waver on the Swedish thing because clearly this is not a black or white problem and because I’m personally unsure of what really is going on. This is how I see my Swedish comments progress:

  1. You wrote anti-Semitism was all but impossible in Sweden since awareness of Nazism and anti-Semitism was very high.
  2. I said I faintly remembered a survey a few years back, which stated otherwise.
  3. You said such a thing was ridiculous and you at least remembered no such thing. My source must be bollocks.
  4. So convinced I was wrong (being a Swede you should know better than me) I hit the net to see what it was I couldn’t quite remember. And I found the survey which if not quite what I wrote (not ignorance but something worse: denial), was near enough to it so I think you ought to have made the connection. Especially since the survey was a pretty big thing, prompting your Premier to a number of initiatives to combat the trend, including this conference. In the same search I also read a number of other surveys and articles that seemed to give the opposite image of Sweden, and, magnanimously that I am, I tentatively conclude that while the first survey must surly mean something it did seem to stand a bit alone and certainly it’s not a clear cut issue. Perhaps as a Swede it would have behooved you better to address the first negative survey, rather than ignore it.
  5. The next day I read the news about the art exhibition, which forced me to the rethink the conclusion. I, unlike you apparently, have not fixed my mind in stone on this subject. Maybe there are no big problems in Europe or Sweden. Maybe there are. Nothing you have written has done anything to convince me either way.

I personally am not left wing on most issues, but have much respect for an honest left wing position, except for a subset that that seem bogged down in the cold war – and naturally if they show anti-Semitic sentiments.

Can you show me precisely wherein this thread you find this extreme pro-Israel slant you talk about. I thought the consensus is pretty much that it’s valid to be even very critical of Israel. The debate is whether the critique is in any way proportional to her wrongs and if not whether this indicative of anything anti-Semitism.

Beagle: I did and do not want to turn it into a Europe vers. America debate and will not reply to your post since that will make it so. Just that I, as a European, did not like to be singled out as the evil continent.

  • Rune
125

The Nation says No. No New anti-Semitism.

And I must say I find such argument as Chesler’s “In my opinion, anyone who denies that this is so or who blames the Jews for provoking the attacks is an anti-Semite.”, if not taken out of context beneath contempt – especially the first part.

  • Rune