The "new" European anti-Semitism

I think the various points I made are quite valid, wherever you bold that sentence.

“Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe” - still literally a true statement; whether because more people have moved there from elsewhere, bringing their anti-Semitism with them or not. Why is such a statement (assuming it is true, which you seem to acknowledge) irritating to Europeans? For, I submit, the reasons I cite - lack of emotional identification with persons of non-European ethnic origins.

Whether by so doing they decrease the overall amount of anti-semitism or not is interesting, but irrelevant.

I actually feel like I need to get back to this…

Education about nazism, racism and anti-semitism is compulsory in the (also compulsory) basic school (9 years). They are all topic for debates in the media from time to time. A few years ago the government also sent out a book about the holocaust to every household in the country. How is that “unacknowledged and indeed unrecognised”?

I explained what was wrong with the “on the rise in EU” statement. Twice. I can accept that I didn’t communicate it well the first time, but for you to not understand it the second time you must have been actively refusing to understand.

If you’re going to ignore what I am saying and make up whatever explanation suits you best, I don’t see a real need for me in the debate.

In my experience that counts also for other EU nations then yours.

As I did. I think debating is futile if the opponents refuse to even make an attemtp to understand what you try to bring across. So I am out of this debate unless someone can offer something interesting to me whihc makes it worth to continue.

Salaam.A

One more thing though

As I said: it is rather the opposite when talking about Muslim immigrants causing such type of trouble in EU countries.
Thank you for at least noticing me saying it. I am part of both cultures. I am raised and educated in both worlds/cultures. I travel between and live in both = I am very well placed by this fact alone to be able to privide you with first hand insight and information on both.

Salaam. A

I do very much feel there is a pan-European identity / history / culture etc. and feel myself a member of a pan-European community, and I would label myself European before Danish but perhaps after Scandinavian. I think Europe is the best thing since sliced bread. I’m proud to be European and a member of European history and culture.

Clearly immigration in Europe and Canada/USA are two different things. European nations are not normally immigrant nations, and have not your long tradition on how to handle it. Danish nationality does not Danish make. I think perhaps you accept immigrants as American when they can show the right passport, while I’d expect a Dane to show some common cultural traits. It’s not about the ethnic background, but the cultural ideas. Also I do not call immigrants into Europe Europeans before they themselves do so, this is a first. If a Somali immigrant consider himself Somalia why should I consider him European? Perhaps I have other qualifications as well (though religion is not one; Muslim or Judaism) but this is the most important.

I make a distinction between the anti-Semitic tendencies among left wing “old” Europeans and anti-Semitism among immigrants because I believe they have wildly different causes. In some ways I consider the left wing the worse, for, having been raised in an educated society, they should know better. However there really are no excuses for second generation immigrants either. I believe a lot of second generation immigrants habour anti-Semitic views, so in that sense it’s not true what Stoneburg says: that it’s not growing inside Europe. It clearly is. And we should examine this, bring it out into the open and deal with it. Not ignore it, or sweep it under the rug. The anti-Semitism among immigrants and their descendants should be confronted by unwavering determinism. Not humored, belittled or excused as understandable cultural baggage (this is often the case).

Aldebara:
“I applaud and encourage propositions to organise courses at academic level in order to educate home-born Imams in EU nations. This is in my view an absolute necessity to get rid of the Wahabbi influence “
Interesting Aldebaran. Completely agree. Such a thing was suggested in Denmark, but wasn’t shown much interest from Muslim groups – perhaps the timing was immature. When you lay off the “Americans are evil” rhetoric, you’re quite a reasonable fellow (meaning someone who thinks like me naturally), I wonder how you view the concept of the “Euro-Muslim”?

Stoneburg I remember a survey few years back. Wherein a catastrophical percentage of Swedes didn’t know what the holocaust was. Perhaps you remember. Also I have read in Danish newspapers, don’t know if it’s true, that history lessons in Sweden is not compulsory, and, as a result historic knowledge among Swedish students is miserable. (Not to say Danes are any better. . . . . . Well ok then. We are.)

  • Rune

Funny you should accuse me of this.

I think you simply don’t understand the point I was making. Which, as a matter of fact, had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holocaust. :confused:

Your debate tactic is puzzling to me. You seem to make lots of quite irrelevant statements, which, while no doubt admirable and interesting, have nothing to do with the argument at hand; and then get upset at being misunderstood.

I am sorry at giving offence. I have not tried to.

Aldebaran,

How can you conclude that debating with me is “futile” when I have not yet responded, as far as I know, to any of your posts? :confused:

I’m sorry, but not taking in to account my explanations when replying to an other poster who tried to explain you about the same I tried to explain, gives the impression that whatever I write wont be taken in to account anyway = you seem to have come to your conclusions no matter what we bring into the discussion.

If I’m wrong about that I’m most ready to be corrected.

Salaam. A

Errr… I have never heard of such a thing. I’ve never met anyone that didn’t know about the holocaust. Actually, if someone said “holocaust” most people probably wouldn’t know what it ment, but if you asked if they knew that millions of jews were executed by the nazis during WWII they would be aware of that.

And history lessons are very much compulsory. I don’t know how good the swedish historic knowledge is compared to other nations, but if that info comes from the same place that claims history isn’t compulsory and thay people don’t know that the holocaust occured, I won’t give it any merit.
Malthus: Since you find my arguments irrelevant, then don’t argue them. Problem solved.

I didn’t even see your post, before replying to his. Probably because I was busy replying.

Given that you have already made up your mind about how close-minded I am without bothering to debate with me first, I’m not sure I’m going to bother to reply to you.

Well, you could [for the sake of argument] point out that I am wrong, that your comments are relevant, and point out why.

Since you won’t, I am forced to conclude it is because you cannot.

This isn’t a “problem” to me; it is simply an interesting phenominon, one I have seen before. To someone of convinced views, being out-argued is simply an irritation, rather than fun. So they put an end to it.

I never use the words “US’ers are evil”. But I presume that you speak of my attacks on the US policies and on some slightly blindfolded and/or misinformed/bigoted/whatever US’ers.
Well, I’m not the only one who tends to refer to that on this message board.
I agree that probably I’m seen as the most provocative in style and wording, yet somebody needs to be the “most bad”, no? I’m always ready to volunteer for the lowest place in the popularity ranking

Speaking of "rethoric… I don’t think I can do this in this rather “cold”(not meant to sound derogating) language, but you should hear me in Arabic when I’m challenged to give in to that part of my roots :slight_smile:

It must be said however that when looking at the US propaganda and the speeches of US officials - president surely included - I must say they almost beat any genuine Arab in this. Yet they don’t have quite the “feeling” or the right timing, nor do they have the right vocabulary in the language, nor do they have the right sound in the language. So their attempts sound unnatural-Hollywood-style to my innocent ears.

That is an interesting question, but not a simple one to answer. It is good food for an other thread in my opinion, if it was only because of the fact that several EU’ers are also posting here.

Salaam. A

Despite the handicap of being a non-EUer, I’ll just keep trudging along with more articles. Sorry if there are any duplicates.

Policy Review

[bolding mine] This is what I was trying to say before. Pinning it all on imported Arab juvenille delinquents is one part, but only part, of the story. The overall intellectual climate is borderline at best.
Time Europe (same issue and section, different article)
History News Network EU report that wasn’t published.
US Holocaust Memorial Museum European anti-Semitism after 1800.
Philly Inquirer On Greece. Very interesting.

Israpundit A list of recent incidents throughout Europe.
Guardian UK

[bolding mine]
National Review
US House of Representatives resolution condemning European anti-Semitism
BACKGROUNDLong PDF on anti-Semitism throughout history.

Long PDF on EU anti-Semitism

You said, twice, that my arguments were irrelevant without clarifying why. Now I need to explain why they are relevant? Considering that I am still not sure if I have even managed to communicate what my arguemtns are, I don’t think I want to try that. Especially since I have no idea which of my arguments are irrelevant to you, or why.

Other people have posted and seem to have understod, so I have been able to communicate it at least to some, I’ll settle for that.

If you like to think of it is being “out argued”, fine, I think of it as a fruitless debate where the involved parties fail to communicate and nothing is achieved. I already knew your opinions (well, not that you had them, but the opinions) so I didn’t learn anything new, you didn’t understand mine/find them relevant, so you didn’t take anything away from the debate either. If that is your idea of “winning” then congratulations, you won. To me it seems we both lost.

Stoneburg

This was the survey I had in mind.
http://www.codoh.com/newsdesk/000122.html
http://www.nordstjernan.com/arkiv/980323.html#08
“Three years ago, the government was stunned to learn that nearly a third of Swedish youths did not believe the Holocaust took place.”

However another survey:
http://www.charitywire.com/charity11/00548.html
“Sweden stands apart from other countries we have surveyed on knowledge about the Holocaust, and that is, in part, due to the Swedish government’s own commitment to preserving memory,” said David A. Harris, executive director of the American Jewish Committee.

And:
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/holocausts.html
“On the other hand, the percentage of respondents who felt that there was the possibility that the Holocaust never occurred was extremely low in all the AJC surveys. In the U.S., Switzerland, Sweden and Poland respectively, only 1 percent of the respondents gave an affirmative answer (that is, they considered it possible that there never was a Holocaust). In Sweden, Switzerland, the U.S. and France respectively, most of the respondents knew that the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust was 6 million. In Germany, 36 percent of the respondents cited the correct figure. “
“Little opposition to the idea of Jewish neighbors was found among the respondents in Sweden (2 percent), the U.S. (5 percent) and Switzerland (8 percent).”
“[The lowest percentages of respondents who believed that Jews exerted too much influence were] in Sweden (2 percent) and the Czech Republic (8 percent).”

(while http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/01/1566578.php)
“34 percent of Americans agree that “Jews have too much influence on Wall Street,” and 37 percent believe that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus Christ”.
As well as “The survey found higher anti-Semitism among Democrats than Republicans. Twenty percent of Democrats and Independents tend to “view Jews as caring only about themselves,” compared to only 12 percent among Republicans”. Seems it’s not only in Europe the left wing has taken to carry the flame of anti-Semitism

And:
http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/00/feb03-00/international/int6.htm
At the suggestion of Holocaust survivor and Nobel Prize laureate Elie Wiesel, there will be an annual conference on “Conscience and Humanism” in Stockholm.
"I don’t know what your role will be in Swedish history, but I know what it will be in Jewish history, Wiesel told Persson in his opening remarks at the conference. “It will be glorious.”

Etc. I think the first survey is at odds with the large number of other surveys, and I’ll conclude I was mistaken on Swedish ignorance on the holocaust. You do indeed seem to be admirable educated – however only because of a continued focus on the issue. A thing, things likes this thread help further. So instead of hoping it to be the last, lets hope we have we have many like it. Also despite the knowledge, Sweden has not miraculously escaped the rising anti-Semitism, as the link already posted by sleeping clearly document.
http://www.crif.org/index.php?menu=5&dossier=33&id_doss=2003&PHPSESSID=355dd37ce0c02983e2cc4670bf79da8a

Beagle. I know labmonkey wanted to discuss Europe. But I think it has been used to imply this is something exclusively to Europe. I’m sure the current disturbing trends are mirrored in Canada and the US. And a cursory search will unearth many likewise American articles.

  • Rune

Let’s review.

Is there an increase in overt antisemitic incidents in Europe?

Yes. Despite Alde’s distate for statistics and our EU’ers lack of personal witnessing of them, we have hard numbers on this. Evidence has been amply provided. They are mainly committed by Arab immigrants. The Far Right hate groups are attacking Arab immigrants more than they are Jews nowadays. We disagree on whether these attacks are exclusively the result of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or secondary to reimported and sanctioned anti-Semitic bile in Arab media.

Is there an increase in antisemitism in Europe outside of that immigrant population? Is there significant antisemitism in Europe outside of that population?

I would say that there is no significant increase, but that historically antisemitic viewpoints have continued in Europe and have found socially acceptable means of expression. In my view vilification of Israel is part of that. (the particular poll of the op is not, IMHO, good evidence of such) There are critiques of Israeli policies and actions and there are things that cross the line. Comparing Israeli actions to genocide and the Nazis for example cross the line. Others believe that there is a rise. In these regards it is scary that countries that scored BEST for having little antisemitism had 8% of respondents not wanting to have Jewish neighbors and feeling that Jews have too much influence.

Others on this board dispute both these contentions. They believe that any criticism of Israel is fair game and that if someone attacks Israel alone it is just because …., well it doesn’t matter why because the rest of us “aren’t empowered” to question their motivations. To them the millennium plus of European Jew hating and mistreatment is ancient history and is now gone, irrelevant to today’s enlightened world; expressed concern that it had only gone under the surface and is coming out of its hole blinking as it gets used to the light again, now clothed in righteous concern over the plight of the Palestinians, is Zionist propaganda designed to deflect attention from Israeli actions, is Jews whining that they “are always your victims.” Afterall, they don’t know anyone who says anything explicitly antisemitic. They even have Jewish friends.

Are Europeans alone in this?

No, of course not. But it has played out differently there than in the US. Europe as a whole was more directly involved in the events of the Holocaust. Beyond Germany and Poland, many Italians, French, and others collaborated with deportation of Jews to death camps. This made overt anti-Semitism among the intellectual crowd anathema. In the US this never occurred. Charges of Jews as Communist, Jews as the controllers of capitalism, Jews controlling the media, Jews controlling foreign policy, and so on, never were quite as verboten in America. Jew-haters haven’t needed to hide too deep. There are also the facts there are more Jews in America (a result of the Holocaust) who have been vocal advocates of Israel, the historic alignment of Israel as an ally when the world was divided between those with us against the Communist hordes or against us, and that Jews are just part of the mix of different groups hated by others. In America there is overall less stigma for not subscribing to mainstream culture (as in Winston’s: “I think perhaps you accept immigrants as American when they can show the right passport, while I’d expect a Dane to show some common cultural traits. It’s not about the ethnic background, but the cultural ideas.”) In America Jews are mostly secularized members of society; in a society that mostly tolerates cultural differences, we are less different than many others. The Left does harbor some who go for Jewish capitalist globalization conspiracy theories and idealize the Palestinians as a Star Wars Rebel Alliance against the Israeli Death Star, but they mainly run rallies at college campuses and anti-globalization shindings.

A fair recap?

DSeid Absolutely a fair recap. Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. Caused both by the ‘new’ as by the old Europeans.

I don’t understand why it is so hard to admit. It’s wrong, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

btw: Before I get sneered at as being a right-wing, xenophobe, anti-Islamist: I’m not. Everyone who knows me, will find that hilarious. I’ve tried [heck, I’m still trying] to understand other peoples and their beliefs. As a volunteer I still teach Dutch to Marrocan, Turkish and Iraqi women. [I wish I could call them ‘Netherlanders’, but they’re not. They think, speak and live in their own culture - no matter how hard we try to involve them in ours.]
The more I get to know those women, the more I notice their hatred towards Jewish people.
A husband of one of the woman said: We have only one goal in mind: Kill all Jews.

And there are ofcourse the ‘old’ anti-semists. I have to say; I don’t encounter them often, but they must be there.

Please don’t say: There’s none in my country. That’s hypocrite.

Continuing on my Sweden rant:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-1-2004_pg4_7

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/17/sweden.israel/

It seems now that Israel is threatening to boycott the Swedish holocaust conference created in the vake of the survey that showed a very large part of Swedish youth didn’t believe the holocaust ever took part. They do so after a Swedish art museum in conjunction with the coming conference has taken the doubtful decision to exhibit a so called installation art-work depicting the Palestinian suicide bomber Hanadi Jaradat who murdered 21 Israeli in a restaurant. The piece indeed sounds in very poor taste; wallowing in a glorification of bloody murder. And this is not only a matter of freedom of speech since art museums are public funded in Sweden and more so since the exhibition was meant to be directly linked to the anti-genocide conference (which Sweden had promised would have no connection to the current middle-east situation). Can’t believe the artist insist the artwork is a “[…]message of openness, discussion, understanding and conciliation”. I think this is another example of the one sidedness of European critique. Who could imagine the other side: Idealised Israeli soldiers gloriously blasting Palestinian youths to bloody pulp (even would it have been based on truthful events)? And exhibited in a public funded museum? The Israelite ambassador shows no remorse after his one man berserk. Good for him.

Looking for links for this I fell across this little tidbit. It seems the (now late) Swedish foreign minister Anna Lindh, expressed deep regrets about the result of the free Israeli election. I can’t recall a single other instance wherein a western country has public criticized the outcome of another country’s free election. Actually isn’t it pretty much standard diplomatic form to abstain from that. (though I think a few European countries will twitch if you reelect Bush :slight_smile: )

DSeid: I think you make a number of statements I can’t support. “In America there is overall less stigma for not subscribing to mainstream culture” In some areas, perhaps. Overall, I don’t think so, e.g. see the gay / lesbian situation or atheists etc. And if you read my sentence as a stigma you misunderstood my intention. I was trying to convey that I don’t really feel much moral responsibility or think it a blot on European society if an Arab immigrant, not raised in or formed by European civilization, expresses anti-Semitic sentiments; as it’s basically Arab anti-Semitism and not European anti-Semitism. As for second generation immigrants it’s another story. If America has less Arab anti-Semitism is perhaps a result of having overall fewer Arab immigrants and being geographical further removed. Also I’d point out that Europe was an ally of Israel before the US, and Israel’s survival in her first years owes a lot to French goodwill and weapons supplies.

I have no answer to the rising anti-Semitism among the left wing as it basically puzzles me. But my guess is an unholy mix of Marxists dinosaurs, glorification of the revolutionary, anti-Globalization (have you read some of the things spewed from their icon: Jose Bove) rooting for the (perceived) underdog, anti-Americanism (seeing Israel as America ally, and the Arabs as the ally of Soviet), and a basic fascination for blood and violence. I can’t see it rooted in history to a very large extend.

BTW DSeid I have personally witnessed an anti-Semitic attack. An (Iranian atheist) friend I have was wearing an (Egyptian Muslim) cap. He was attacked outside the central station in Copenhagen by a second generation Arab immigrant who though it was a Jewish cap. However before I could react the attacked was fortunately in turn attacked by a number of other Arab or middle-east immigrants, who, they explained, had nothing against Jews. They beat him up pretty badly before the police came around. So there, no Jews involved. The day saved by Arab immigrants.

  • Rune

Thank you, WinstonSmith, for explaining in much better English than me. [I?]

The “work of art” is called ‘Snow White And The Madness Of Truth’, features a photo of Hanadi Jaradat, - the mother of two young children, who’s dream was to become a martyr for allah and have her bodyparts flew all over - a 29-year-old trainee lawyer who blew up herself and 19 Israelis in a Haifa restaurant in October.

Indeed: If it was the other way around, no-one would even have dared to call it ‘art’.

Yes, the anti-semitism among the so called ‘left-wing’ puzzles me too.
I can only assume -since I’m a notorious left-winger myself - that - again- some left-wingers are a bit out of date.
Give them time. :slight_smile:

Winston,

Stigma was perhaps a poor word choice. I apologize if it caused any offence. I’ll try again. Substitute the following:

As Winston points out, absorbing the “host” country’s culture and assimilating as fully as possible is of greater importance to many in Europe than in America where maintaining a large degree of “other” cultural/national identity is, in the main, tolerated. (This is also seen in the French interpretation of secularism. In America it means minimal State imposition of religious symbols with preservation of individual freedom to express; in France it means limitation of individual expression of religious symbols since they differentiate the indivdual from the majority group.). In America Jews are mostly secularized members of society; in a society that mostly tolerates cultural differences, we are less different than many others.

Better?

I can see your position vis a vis gays and atheists but do not really consider those issues of preserving cultural heritage/values. Intolerance certainly is in no short supply in America; I do not mean to idealize. But the concept of being an American who also has a peoplehood identity other than American is more acceptable here. The concept of Jews feeling that they are part of a Jewish people, a nation, as an important part of who they are is just part of the normative American process, in the mix with bumper stickers decaring “Italian Stallion” and “Polish Pride”, and parades on St. Patrick’s Day. All of which I think would stand out in your country. I don’t even mean to say that there is less antisemitism in the US. There may or may not be. But it has different manifestations. In Europe old line stereotypes have too much Nazi baggage now and discomfort with “Jewish nationhood” has moved into the frontline since Israel was concieved; in America the antisemites still focus on the stereotypes of Jews with undue power … conspiring to impose liberalism or neoconservatism; behind capitalist globalization or behind communism. An identity with a Jewish people is less of the issue.

We disgree on the historical rootedness of the problem and that’s okay. My recap was intended to bring this thread back from a contentious cusp to some level of respectful understanding of each others different POVs. Posters (Stoney, Malthus, Alde) each were feeling that their points weren’t being heard. I was wanting to make it clear that we have each heard each others positions even if we disagree, and give an opportunity to clarify if I still didn’t quite get the point that someone else was trying to make. I can, in good faith, occasionally be quite dense.

Your information on the situation in Sweden is informative and has parallel with Beagle’s post about the situation in Greece. (and they are different artists.) I suspect that the Museum director doesn’t think of him or herself as antisemitic for placing that work in an exhibit linked to The Holocaust, nor does the Greek artist. They likely think that this is just oversensitivity on the part of Jews.

An aside: I do believe that you are mistaken about Europe’s “goodwill” in Israel’s early days. Israel’s early days were marked by a worldwide arms embargo (in which America participated) … ironically enough only the vicious antisemite Stalin would sell to Israel (via the Czech Republic) … and only America and the USSR initially diplomatically recognized Israel, quickly followed by Guatemala, Byelorussia, the Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia. (Britian followed in January of 1949. Despite its creation by UN mandate, the Un declined its initial application for membership. It acceded a year later.) You are correct that France sold arms to Israel before the US did. This was in 1955, I believe, in response to Egyptian support of Algerian rebels. America didn’t sell arms to Israel until 1962.