The greatest deception of which was fooling them into thinking that the one great Gift that Eru gave to Men was rather a curse, so they would fear it. The Elves are (or at least, were) superior to Men in almost every way, but they envy us the gift that we may eventually leave the circles of the World and be bound no more by the Song of the Ainur.
Continuning the hijack…
So then who were the “Black Numenoreans”? I thought those were the Corsairs of Umbar? Time to haul out my books for a cozy re-read.
And I like the idea of a fish eating Sauron’s hand. After all, we only have Isildur’s word for the whole “I cut the ring off the enemy’s hand” story.
Those were the Numenoreans who followed Sauron in Middle earth.
The Black Numenoreans settled along the coast of middle-earth, but further south, away from the elf-friends who had settled near the Pelargir, the Stone of Erech, and by Dol Amroth in addition to a few near to the Havens in the north. The regions of Umbar are the Black Numenoreans’ only named area of settlement.
There is speculation that the Numenoreans settled in that area circa SA 1800, long before Ar-Pharazon arose to power, and fell under Sauron’s influence then. They purportedly produced at least one ringwratih, aided Sauron in his battles at the end of the SA, and their descendents plagued Gondor over subsequent ages.
Black Numenoreans were descended from the Numenorean Sea King’s Navy. The set up a huge and strong port in Umbar and were black hearted supporters of Sauron. The ruled the Corsairs. The Corsairs were a mixed group, descended from Gondorians that had revolts, Black Numenoreans and mostly Haradrim. (South Men).
Jim
So is their lineage as long as the Numenoreans? Why are the South and East men not given the same such praise for any feats of valor. They were always evil?
Not all Southerners and Easterners were evil but most of the ones that the Men of Gondor interacted with were either serving evil or at least aggressive enemies in war, possibly driven into the west by servants of Sauron.
There must have been some hope and good peoples in the South and East as two of the Wizards went to try an help. The Blue Wizards, Alatar and Pallando.
Jim
Remember the swarthy men! Bor entered Beleriand late with his people, and wasn’t considered Edain, yet was loyal to the Eldar. Granted, he and his folks all got slaughtered.
Then there was Ulfang, the swarthy man who also entered Beleriand late, swore allegiance to the Eldar, and betrayed them.
Meanwhile, some Numenoreans stayed true to the Eldar and Valar and did deeds of valor, while some betrayed them and attacked them.
No side had exclusivity on good and evil. Despite JRRT’s writings being usurped and caricatured by those who would call him a ‘white’ or ‘western’ supremacist, a closer reading of his works shows this is not the case. Heck, JRRT even struggled philosophically with how the orcs could be ‘redeemed’.
As to the Blue Wizards, Tolkien also renamed them Morinehtar and Rómestámo late in life.
Damn, this has been an entertaining thread! Sorry I’m late to the party. Glad to see all the usual suspects.
Which brings up the sticky question of were Orcs, Elves corrupted and bred by Morgoth? While it is clear that Morgoth could not create life and it is hinted at the Orcs are descended from Elves, Tolkien left a lot of conflicting information on this subject.
Hi Elendil’s Heir, good to see you. Which books reference the newer names of the blue wizards?
Jim
I forget where exactly I read about them, O so many years ago, but check this out: Wizards in Middle-earth - Wikipedia
JRRT never sorted it out. He did leave strong hints that he wanted to re-write things so that orcs had no descent from elves at all, being corruptions of men.
He also wanted to re-write the early histories to give Arda a sun, and possibly a moon, from the beginning. But he struggled with how to preserve the story of the starfolk (elves) and the Two trees.
Morinethar & Rómestámo are found in “Peoples of Middle Earth”. Did you not know this almost instinctively??! JRRT was busy re-inventing the two blue wizards at that point. Check it out, you’ll find it fascinating. Or just read the Wiki summary if you’re pressed for time.
See that is the problem. I know the 4 books of the third age and Silmarillion really well from many readings and as a major reference source. I only read the various histories once.
Jim
Well, why not work on “Unfinished Tales” for a while, then move into HOMES for another go-thru.
Tolkien originally planned on using this idea, but eventually dropped it when he decided to write his work as an epic fantasy novel rather than a sit-com.
And speaking of sex (what do you mean we weren’t), how did Saruman cross orcs with goblin men to come up with Uruk-Hai? Who was providing the womb service? I know I can probably google the answer but I’m afraid of the artwork I might accidentally see.
Gosh, this is a fun thread.
He never specified, but it seems likely he could have had male Orcs rape human woman and possibly some really hard-up human males to service some female Orcs and goblins. Sauruman had a great ability to beguile, he may even have pulled some Merlin tricks with making the orcs appear otherwise for the actual intercourse. Conjecture at will, I doubt even Qadgop the Mercotan can produce notes from the Professor on this subject.
QtM: I still need to get started (well restarted) on reading Disc World. I plan to follow your advice from a few weeks back. They are the next books in queue for me.
Jim
Eh? I thought we had the story from Elrond? or have I conflated a movieism with something from the books?
Nonetheless, Isildur got shot and fell into the water, so the fish could’ve eaten his hand. And although he wasn’t up to Sauron’s level, Isildur was kinda a prat, too.
Least of the Ring Bearers? Lesser even than Smeagol and Deagol? Samwise freely gave up the ring, and loyally braved many perils, despite being very small and unskilled in combat.
Speaking of orcs, I never see any female orcs. If they are derived from Elves, shouldn’t there be female orcs? Maybe they are like the dwarves and are almost impossible to tell apart. Hell, the Elves are pretty androidgynous too.
I guess my question is: where do baby orcs come from, and how are they raised?
Um, well, er, … Okay, you got me. I was overlooking them.
Female Goblins and Orcs were not even mentioned in the Hobbit in the Great Goblin’s cave.
Conjecture again, female orcs and goblins were kept producing whelps. Goblins were all about producing as many new Goblins to be Axe fodder as possible. You can be sure they led a very dreadful life.
Jim