I didn’t know they had printing presses back then, in order to print books.
AFAIK there was not yet a schism between the eastern and western church. Why then do the OT canons of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches differ?
In Thomas Mann’s book Joseph and His Brothers, the first part called “The Tales of Jacob,” he has Joseph’s older brothers sitting around and one of them sings an old song with the words
And Lamech said unto his wives,
Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice;
ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech:
for I have slain a man to my wounding,
and a young man to my hurt.
They remark to each other, That song was from the good old days, when men were men! A real man could go around and kill people and not be a wuss about it! Thomas Mann’s point was that this song was already ancient in the time of Jacob (the novel begins “Deep, very deep lies the well of the past. Shall we not call it immeasurable?”). This fragment of it was inserted in the book of Genesis, 4:23. This was all a long, long time before Moses. So some parts of Genesis are way older than others.
What about the woman who wrote the Book of J?
You are right. I was posting from memory and I somehow conflated the stories of Ezra and Nehemiah with the story of Josiah, Hilkiah, and Shaphan and the “finding” of the Book of the Law. I certainly did not intend to indicate that it was unknown prior to Nehemiah’s reforms. Even the story of Josiah strikes me as a bit of literary license, as I suspect that the record of the Law was kept even when the society was ignoring it.
RedNaxela, thanks for the info. Is there some reference to the “Men of the Great Assembly” around? I have never encountered any reference to it except in cmkeller’s (and now your) posts (and I definitely looked for it after it was first mentioned, over a year ago).
dqa:
In what way do they differ? I have never encountered anyone who has made that claim, before.
From the Q&A Section of the Orthodox Church in America website:
They address the Orthodox/Catholic vs Protestant distinction while not refering to any Orthodox vs Catholic differences. What differences?
My sources include a website by a Jesuit professor at Loyola Marymount and an essay entitled “The Canons of the Bible” on p. 455(NT) of the New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV with Apocrypha) Third Edition, 2001. The latter includes a chart listing the Jewish, Protestant, and Roman Catholic/Orthodox Canon. At the bottom of the RC/Orthodox column, after listing all the books agreed upon by the two churches, it notes
2 Esdras appears merely to be a grouping together of Ezra and Nehemiah, but it looks like the rest are not included in the Catholic Canon. The site I listed above is pretty clear in its comparison.
OK, I found Holy Scripture in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is written from a very specific viewpoint that is pretty well guaranteed to raise the hackles of Jews, Catholics, and Protestants. It does seem to provide information on the differences (from the author’s perspective), but it is lacking a general overview of events and decisions outside his purview.
I have not had a lot of exposure to Orthodox texts, so I do not have any specific insight into some of the differences mentioned.
I will note that the Orthodox are not a monolithic organization with a single set of rules. Most of the Orthodox groups are laid out along somewhat ethnic/national boundaries and several are autocephalic (having their own head, not reporting to any other body), so there may be differences in the Scriptural beliefs of different groups.
This Methodist site provides some interesting detail on various scriptural canons. It doesn’t delve too deeply into the nitty gritty of dates and conferences and so forth, and some of the external links are stale, but overall is an illuminating site for the OP.
I should clarify: When Chaim referred to it some time in the last year or so, I went to look it up and found quite a few references to the Anshei Kenesset HaGedolah with descriptions of their calling out (on several occasions over several hundred years) and their impact on the Sanhedrin, the setting of dates for certain practices of worship, and their selection of Simon the Hsmonean as ruler, etc. What I have not found is a description of their activities in regards to helping to establish a canon (or rules for selecting a canon).
tomndebb:
Jewish history books written from the Orthodoc perspective invariably point to them as the formalizers of the Jewish canon. One that I currently have at home is Echoes of Glory by Rabbi Berel Wein; it’s mentioned on page 14. As yet, I’m not certain where the primary source for the attribution is, but I can certainly try to trace it…I’m guessing Maimonides’ Introduction to Talmud, but I’ll look it up and post when I’m certain.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Here is a very good essay on the origins of the Bible:
The Bible and Christianity - The Historical Origins
Thanks to everyone who sent replys to my post. I have found many wonderful and useful sources to answer my questions. I hope this conversation can continue.