I do believe, and Kyla or someone else more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me on this, but I think that the chosen part means chosen by God to have to follow a bunch more rules for no reason. Jews are chosen to follow a more difficult moral path than non-jews and they don’t really see any better rewards because of it. That’s all.
dropzone: meh, he’s just a kid. He’s still learning stuff. It’s okay.
As for this thread, I really don’t think it’s a big deal. The original post made perfect sense to me. The thing is, most restaurants in Jerusalem are kosher and lots of people there keep kosher and it’s just kind of funny that the one place that the interviewer chose isn’t kosher. Shit, I don’t keep kosher, but I still ate kosher food almost every time I went to a restaurant when I was in Jerusalem.
The “unfortunately” thing bugs me a little but IMHO it’s not worth a Pit thread. The reactions and wacky analogies in this thread are WAY over the top. Especially when Shinna Minna Ma is actually engaging in something much worse (participating in an orchestrated attempt to violate international treaties and human rights laws) that is worthy of a Pitting. The settlers are high on my personal list of the Worst People In The World.
Having said that, I’m pooped and not feeling the vitriol right now. Night, y’all.
I didn’t pick up on the fact the Shiina was a settler - this just makes it worse. The prat is a perverted prick. His version of Judaism fucking sucks donkey balls. To complain that there is a SHORTAGE of Kosher places I would be fine with, to complain that there are too many non kosher places seeks to put a limit on my choices - whether or not he plans to do something about it, merely holding the opinion is bad enough.
Yeah I agree there are far more things to get upset about. It just bugged the everyloving shit out of me in that he wants to limit the choice of others, and unless you keep kosher you are somehow not good enough.
If anybody expressed displeasure such as:
there are too many Christians here
there are too many blacks here
there are too many chicks here
They would be pitted. Why should this damn up-himself, self rightous prig get a pass just because he is expressing an opinion that people should be more religious?
That is an incorrect understanding. Most consider them as somewhat passe and choose not to follow them, but that is not quite the same as rejecting them. But yeah the Orthodox would feel that it is unfortunate that a Reform Jew has turned their back on The Law.
Kyla most Jews in Israel are fairly unobservant, which I am sure is what the Pittee is bemoaning. The Orthodox are a minority but they are often needed as the swing votes in forming ruling coalitions and have been able to parlay their votes into large amounts of power.
This is a bit of a hijack but the current politics of coalition building are playing out the secular religious divide in a very interesting way. Bibi and Likud have marginally fewer votes than the more centrist Kadima party but all together the parties of the Right have enough form a coalition while the center and the Left do not. But the parties of the Right include both religiously Right Parties (like Shas and United Torah) and the iron-fist anti-Arab but very secular (wants civil marriages) Yisrael Beitenu party headed by Lieberman. (I am sure he does not bemoan restaurants that sell pork but he does hold Arab Israelis with suspicion.) Can Bibi hold up a tent that contains such disparate parties all as of the Right? Or will the secular religious divide end up bringing them down.
There are many reasons to hope for a long term peace between Israel and Palestinian Arabs; one of the lesser but more fun ones is that once that external threat to Israel is gone the battle between the ultra-religious and the secular can be played out in more full force and that will be an interesting fight to see!
Vox, do homework and when you come back bring pie. Chosen doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Inner Stickler to the observant the following of the Law is its own reward. Seriously.
Eer actually no, its not anything to label a Jew a bigot. If I wanted to do that I would be starting a new thread every second day. He is lamenting that people who are NOT Jews have too many options. And since when is it up to him which practises Jews should and shouldn’t follow - (what they should eat) who the fuck is he? The religious police?
And if someone protested walmart because of walmarts religious practises then I would equally pit them.
Come on, that’s uncalled-for. Isn’t it well known that he is just a teenager? I mean, I don’t know shit about anyone on this board, and I know that. You don’t call kids idiots - especially ones to whom being “smart” is obviously very important. Yes, he’s a little sure of himself, but who among us wasn’t at that age? Half you assholes still are, and half is probably being way too generous. At least he doesn’t drop rude ass condescending comments for basically no reason-- not that I’ve seen, anyway. Can’t say the same for you.
Alright, I did overstate it a bit for effect, but in the Old Testament, they are pretty much led by God on a path of conquest and genocide because they are the Special People, e.g. Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. I didn’t mean to say that I think modern Jews think this way, though. Even so, the fact that they are chosen to follow a “different moral path” makes them More Special than everyone else. The very fact that God has a different plan for them sets them apart.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
ETA: I think some of you think I mean that modern Jews have the idea that they should rule the world or something. I did not mean to imply that.
Okay, well I’m Jack Chick and I think it’s unfortunate that those Catholics can buy their states of saints out in the open like that.
We can split hairs for a hundred years.
That’s a worse analogy than the Ganesh statue thing. Wanting or not wanting black people to join a country club has nothing to do with any aspect of whiteness.
Shinna Minna Mas never said a word that denegrates any Jew who does not keep kosher. He never said that it was wrong or that they weren’t good Jews or that it’s a roadblock to peace or will keep anyone out of the world to come or that more Jews need to be shomer kashrut to hasten the coming of Moshiach.
All of the negative inference and the suggestion of nefarious purposes and motivations behind his statements have been ascribed by others. You can’t equate a wish for more people to attach themselves to a religious practice that the wish-maker believes will enhance their lives and spirituality with a wish for people to engage in behaviors that oppress others. Or a wish that people of different backgrounds not be a part of the community. They’re different things.
Now if you want to take apart the spiritual argument about the benefits of keeping kosher, good luck. It’s a matter of faith. And people who believe that they are blessed by engaging in something aren’t likely to be dissuaded from a belief that it will be a similar blessing to others. (Reasonable analogy: a discussion between practicing and non-practicing Catholics about how enhanced non-practicing Catholics’ lives would be if they regularly attended Mass/took part in the Eucharist.)
If you want to argue with Shinna Minna Mas’s that the widespread availability of treif doesn’t have an impact on how many people choose to keep kosher, go for it. That’s a reasonable argument to have.
If you want to argue with Shinna Minna Mas on the grounds that overcoming the temptations of treif and keeping kosher is more meaningful an observance than keeping kosher when there are no other options, go for it. That’s also a reasonable argument to have.
If you want to take Shinna Minna Mas to task over living in a settlement, then go for it like crazy. If anything he’s said or done warrants being taken apart, that’s it.
But the kosher thing is a non-starter. As someone said, for the observant, fulfilling the mitzvot is its own reward. Wishing that other Jews would have that reward in their own lives is like wishing that everybody had a milkshake.
It has been well pointed out to you that he is very likely not complaining that non-Jews have places to eat. Or that there are too many non-Jews in Israel (as I pointed out in my last post, it is Lieberman, a secularist, who is making that claim, though most Jewish Israelis do believe that Israel is indeed of a Jewish character). He is indeed bitching that there are so many non-observant Jews in Israel - the vast majority in fact.
Oh my, a religiously observant person regretted that others of the faith do not see things as they do. How bigoted. Yup, all those Catholics upset that some other Catholics support Pro-Choice are bigots. And a Mormon tut-tuttting over another Mormon having a Starbucks. That’s a bigot too! The Muslim privately upset over the Islamic girl in a halter top? Bigotry. The Christian born-again upset over the porn shop down the street that get frequented by Christians. Bigot too!
He’s not throwing acid on pork-eaters. He just believes that other Jews shouldn’t be eating it. He can believe what he wants. It’s a free country.
Except that he is - he is complaining that there are too many “non Kosher” places in Israel. How is that not bemoaning that new Jews have places to eat? It sounds to me as though I am free to do whatever I like, so long as it doesn’t go against his religion.
Or perhaps it would be better if all of the nasty non Jews and non-observant Jews just hid in their homes- or better still, became outcasts in their own country
I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t die if I stopped eating meat and milk at the same time.
Valete,
Vox Imperatoris
No you wouldn’t - but neither should you have to in order to protect someone else’s sensibilities.
I have just one question - what would the general reaction be if I said
“Damn it all, there are really too many Kosher restaurants around here. Those damn Jews should really learn to do as the romans do and enjoy pork ribs just like the rest of us”.
Well this is what Shinna is saying - that there are too many non Kosher places for those that don’t keep kosher - it is not his place to say. It is not his place to make any sort of value judgement of others, which is implicit in his complaint - even if he doesn’t say it.
I haven’t really gotten on board with this pitting because although I think **Shinna **is a loathesome bag of canine effluvium, I think there is a difference between saying, “I wish people would quit doing X” and “I want it to be impossible for people to do X.” It seemed at least possible that **Shinna **was opining the former rather than the latter. I can’t really criticize her for that; I might myself, while driving through some benighted town, say, “Unfortunately, there are too goddamn many churches around here,” while certainly not endorsing any limitations on people’s right to practice the religion of their choice.
But **Shinna **is a settler, which means that (by her own admission) *for reasons of pure convenience *(and not for ideological reasons) she is living on land that another people wants as part of their legitimate aspirations for a state. Also, she lives in a town that, as I understand it, either through force of law or through social pressure, enforces various strict Jewish laws like not driving on the Sabbath. And then she has the gall to bitch because somebody isn’t respecting *her *desires and life choices? Un-fucking-believable. Self-absorption to the point of narcissism.
Speaking as a non-Christian myself, I think it’s rather offensive that you consider me to be equivalent to a ham and cheese sandwich.
I agree with you on the bigotry part, but I gotta take issue on the “chosen master race” thing …
The “chosen people” thing does not mean what you evidently think it means. It does not, for instance, mean that Jews believe they are a “chosen master race”.
I know this has been discussed many times before … I can’t get the search function to work properly. Suffice it to say that traditional Jews consider themselves “chosen” to set a good example for others and to follow the 613 commandments in the Torah. Pretty well uniquely among religions, in Judaism a non-Jew who follows the (very basic) Noahide laws is considered just as “good” as any Jew.
It is a concern that you really can’t see how the two statements differ.
Malthus, could you elaborate? Because I can’t see why I shouldn’t accept Bengangmo’s analogy.
Sure. Look at the analogy.
The operative words here are “those damn Jews”. The point is that it is on its face directed against another ethnicity - it begs the question by forcing the conclusion that what is behind the “lament” is, as a matter of fact, bigotry: “damn Jews” presumes the speaker is not, him or herself, a Jew.
In contrast, lamenting the fact that there are non-kosher restaurants around is, as many have already noted, presumably not directed against another ethnicity. Religious Jews do not care what non-Jews eat and do not “lament” the fact that non-Jews are not kosher. While the pitted poster does not say whether or not their motivation is “bigotry”, the more natural and obvious conclusion to those who actually know about the Israeli situation is that it is not - it is a mere desire that Jewish people themselves be more traditionally observant.
A more appropriate analogy would be “I, a Black man, lament the fact that the Black nightclubs in my neighbourhood play rap instead of good old Delta Blues”.
Now it may be that the poster in question is a bigot - who knows? But what she’s pitted for does not demonstrate it.
“Unfortunately, there are a lot of Kosher restaurants on my part of town.”
“Unfortunately, there’s another mosque being built in my neighborhood.”
“Unfortunately, retailers now sell pants to women instead of only floor-length frocks.”
“Unfortunately, rock music and r&b is being sold at Walmart, not just gospel.”
Although these attitudes aren’t killing anyone, they reflect a certain arrogance, insularity, and social intolerance and do not reflect well on the person who holds them. The presence of kosher restaurants and mosques do not hurt me, my environment, or other people. Complaining about their existence would mark me as asshole. Since when are assholes given a pass in the Pit?
I don’t see why Israeli citizenship should make one exempt from criticism, either. If all citizens (Jews and gentiles) are considered equal under the law, with no second class status given to anyone on the basis of ethnicity or religion, then I would think it’s citizens would respect that.