The more apt analogy is “I, a black man, lament the fact that there are black nightclubs that play rap instead of just blues.”
The pittee wasn’t bemoaning a lack of kosher restaurants, but rather that non-kosher restaurants have the audacity to not be scarce.
The fact that the non-kosher places exist suggest that there is a sizable enough population of non-kosher keepers. How does it hurt anyone that that they be allowed to have ham and cheese sandwiches and pepperoni pizza once in a while?
I quite agree - it doesn’t. Personally, I think bemoaning the fact that there are non-kosher restaurants is silly - and I have no objections to your modification of the analogy, it works just as well.
What I strongly disagree with is that an opinion that is “silly” is also thereby demonstrating bigotry. A man bemoaning the fact that rap is being played by people in his own ethnic community isn’t a bigot for saying that, and the claim that he is is even siller than the original statement he made.
And your point is? No one said he isn’t allowed to believe what he wants. That doesn’t mean, however, that people can’t comment on said beliefs. If someone came here and started bitching about Christians going into a porn shop, you better BELIEVE we’d say something.
You can express your opinions around here-but don’t expect them to go unchallenged. Don’t like it? Tough shit.
Sorry, Lamia, I didn’t mean it that way. I guess what I’m trying to say is, just because someone has a right to express their own opinion doesn’t mean that others can’t comment on said opinion and disagree with it.
Maybe it’s not QUITE bigotry she’s expressing-but it’s certainly selfish. (And let’s not get into the whole settler thing…)
Exactly.
As an atheist I’m rarely in the position of having to defend other people’s purely religious taboos, but Shinna is allowed to have a harmless if narrow-minded opinion and he’s allowed to say so. If people want to debate with him about his opinion then great, that’s a big part of what this board is about. But he hasn’t even shown up in this thread yet, so there’s no debating with him. It looks instead like a lot of posters here feel he should be condemned merely because he’s expressed his opinion (and in pretty mild terms at that).
Now, if Shinna comes in here and says that pork-serving restaurants should be banned or that pork-eaters are evil then I’ll lose what sympathy I have for him. But if he’s said nothing harsher than “unfortunately” then I don’t see anything worth getting worked up about. It doesn’t seem like he’s trying to force his views on anyone else or even being rude about it.
But as far as I can see, no-one is claiming what he said can’t be challenged, or even laughed at, mocked, or abused - or whatever.
What is causing the reaction is labelling something as bigotry when it is not. To my mind, this is a simple misunderstanding - the assumption being that ‘presence of non-Kosher restaurants’ is being equated with ‘presence of non-Jews’, and so the one is a commentary on the other.
I still can’t get it straight as to whether Shinna is male or female.
I think this is worth debating. Not all preferences and biases are equal. Personally, I’m not a fan of a lot of rap out there, not just because aesthetically it doesn’t appeal to me, but because I think it encourages a dismissive if not misogynistic view of women. So I may gripe about rap’s pervasuasiveness because I think it causes social harm, not because I’m offended by people being different than me.
I feel the same way about vegetarians who think meat is murder and bemoan the existence of butcher shops. Or the pro-life person who objects to an abortion clinic in their city. Their problem isn’t just that difference is allowed to exist. They think harm is being done to another being, and are concerned about that harm.
Complaining that facilities exist that cater to people who are different than me, simply on the grounds that they are different (or “not as Jewish”) strikes me as unjustifiably intolerant. It’s akin to wishing only liberal people posted on the SDMB or complaining about overweight people at the beach. There’s something more than just “silly” about these particular attitudes.
Right, but religious Jews think that when Jews don’t keep kosher (or the other commandments), they’re harming themselves and also causing harm to the world. If you’re haredi, you can’t really say, “Well, I try to keep the commendments, but it’s no big deal if Joel over there does.” You have a moral duty to make sure that other Jews try to keep the commandments.
What’s the difference? The poster in this case isn’t I think complaining because “people are different”, but because of a perceived falling-away from ethical standards. To religious Jews, keeping kosher is not mere ritual, but a good thing for you (if you are a Jew), body and soul; thus, those who aren’t doing it when they ought to, are harming themselves.
Obviously I don’t believe in it and so do not agree with them, but I don’t have to in order to understand their motivations.
As stated, I would tend to disagree: the example falls within the former category, not the latter.
I’ve never heard that failure to keep Kosher (or any other Jewish practice) is supposed to cause harm to others or the world. The “moral duty” thing is also news to me. Are you sure about this?
(I assume you meant non Jews.) The major “other” in Israel are Arabs. Do you think he was complaining about them when he stated that it is all too easy to find pork in Israel? If so then you should read up on Halal.
If a native of China complained that there were too many McDonald’s near the Forbidden City would that be complaining that there are too many Westerners in China and bemoaning that Westerners now have a place to eat? When a Frenchman complains about the rise of sandwich shops for lunch in Paris (and some do) are they bemoaning that there are too many Brits about? Believe it or not Kosher food in Israel tastes about the same as non-Kosher food - you just can’t get some items, like a cheeseburger or a ham sandwich or lobster.
No, our Pittee is very likely Haredi or at least very Orthodox and the object of his disdain is not Arabs, or Christians, but the non-observant secular Jew.
Now the fact that a religiously observant person (of any faith) takes on a holier than thou attitude and presumes that their interpretation of the faith is superior may be Pittable. Sure Guin, “challenge” away. In Israel it is very Pittable because they have some degree of power and do have some success in imposing their religious practice on others (akin to towns in America where one cannot buy alcohol on Sunday by Law and other blue laws). It may be religiously arrogant. It may even be as bad in spirit as Mormons who posthumously “baptize” victims of the Holocaust, and as bad as a Christian missionary trying to bring the heathen to Christ. It may be Israel’s biggest culture war - the secular/highly observant (Jewish fundie) divide. But it is not bigotry.
Just Pit for what it is, not out of ignorance.
Read the OT, particularly the Book of Judges. Remember how God would keep on sending invaders after the Israelites had strayed? The Almighty judges - and punishes - the Jewish People as a whole. Personal salvation, to Jews, is less important than national salvation.
At least, that’s the official theology.
How about I play devil’s advocate and continue to disagree with you.
If I opine that the lack of exercise and poor diet is a “falling-away from ethical standards” and is not a good thing for people (body and soul) and those who engage in this behavior and allow themselves to become overweight are harming themselves…am I not a jerk if I complain about fat folks at the beach?
Actually, we don’t know that. He opined that he wishes Israel would become more Jewish. That suggests, to me at least, that he very well may have a problem with non-Jews.
My impression is in line with what Dseid posted earlier:
Meaning, it’s not so much that folks keep Kosher to avoid the wrath of God or pursue heavenly favor, but rather it’s because God told them to do it so that’s what they do. I didn’t even think salvation was a major concept in Judaism.
But if I’m wrong about that, then I’m wrong.
I’m kinda scratching my head over that. Certainly it would be obnoxious to say that to their face on the beach itself; but is it jerkish to bemoan the prevelence of obesity in the country as a whole?
If so, there are lot of jerkish doctors out there right now writing articles.
http://www.newspostleader.co.uk/latest/Region-has-highest-rate-of.5028400.jp
I wouldn’t say it’s a jerkish thing to comment on the epidemic of obesity like this: “Unfortunately, the prevalence of obesity is climbing every year and with that we see more people type II diabetes, joint problems, and depression.”
But for some reason it does sound jerkish to me to say “Unfortunately, fat people often flock to East Side beach and it seems as every summer there are even more here.”
I think Shinn’s opinion is more analogous to the second one. I don’t get the sense he’s concerned about the well-being of his non-observant brethen. He just wants his beach (Israel) to be “fat-free” (observant Jews only).
There’s a lot in Judaism about the spiritual benefits of following the commandments and the spiritual cost of not following them.
Consider my already given analogies:
Chinese individual discussing McDonald’s in the Forbidden City: “The Forbidden City should be Chinese.”
A Frenchman complaining about the rise of sandwich shops for lunches supplanting bistros: “I regret that Paris is no longer as French as it should be.”
Both of these and our Pittee have a certain cultural elitism perhaps, but nothing that evinces bigotry.
Our Pittee want Israel to be culturally what he considers to be Jewish. Jewish food, Jewish holidays off, shops all closed Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, etc. There is nothing there that regrets the presence of non-Jews who would eat pork (which would not be Arabs but Christians).
And taking time out for doughnuts.