The Planned Parenthood thread fiasco revisited

The BBQ Pit
1

I certainly hope that my title is more appropriate than Euthanasiast’s was considered. I also wish to state up front that I am close to Euthanasiast, but that does not mean we always agree on everything. On this subject, however, we are in complete agreement about his intended topic. I rarely start threads, much less pit threads, but I feel like the battle that was waged in Euthanasiast’s original thread was more about his alleged intentions and his supposed defiance of the mods that the issue he wanted to discuss. I feel that topic is important and should be revisited outside the thread regarding his suspension.

I also had planned to discuss this topic in the original thread and was unable to do so before it was closed. I hope the mods do not mind me restarting the original topic of the thread to actually discuss the issue at hand. The video in question is located here.

I went through the video myself and complied the actual minutes in order to get a true understanding of the events that transpired. I also matched the frames displayed in the corner to the time stamp at the top to satisfy my own curiosity that the tape hadn’t been “tampered” with, as some seemed to insinuate. While there are chunks missing - as noted below - there are clear sections of the video where a back-and-forth exchange makes the nurse’s intentions clear, in my mind.

Here are my findings - I hope that I was careful enough to be as accurate as humanly possible. I also hope that I am not breaking a rule by transcribing the video here. The total video appears to be 29 minutes and 5 seconds long. Total time in the interview room is 18 minutes and 20 seconds. I will admit beforehand there are large portions of time that were not included in the video, mainly between the time of 1:28:31 and 1:35:50.

Because of the accusations that were thrown at Euthanasiast, I feel I should make my stance on something clear - I am pro-choice (as is Euthanasiast). I am pro-choice for adults and teenagers with parental permission. I am also the parent of a 13 year-old daughter. I am very much against someone like the above nurse giving MY child information to conceal her sexual involvement with someone nearly my age and/or giving her “tips” on how to get an abortion without my knowledge.

I do not believe the ludicrous, ridiculous, bullshit argument that the nurse just “knew” she was over 13 and continued to go along with the charade. To what end would the nurse do such a thing? What does that do to help the girl, and not waste the nurse’s time that some seem to be so concerned with? If she knew the girl was over 13, I firmly believe she would have called her on it or tried to convince the girl to be honest. It only HELPS the girl if she is over 13 years old unless she’s lying for the purpose of getting the nurse in trouble (as this girl admittedly was). The nurse doesn’t get to look at a girl and make a determination about her age based on looks alone. The girl does look young, in my opinion, and I’ve seen 14 year-olds that do look 18-20. Everyone has commented on how much faster our young girls are growing up these days. The argument that the nurse didn’t believe the girl’s age is completely counter to her actions in the video and any reasonable person would agree.

I am fuming over the statement that even sven made, that her birth control being free at Planned Parenthood makes the sacrifice of a 13 year old girl every now and then ok. WHAT THE FUCK, even sven? I’ll ignore for the moment that you are defending an organization that no one was truly attacking to say that your damned right to fucking free/reduced cost health care, birth control pills and STD tests does not outweigh my child’s right to not be “sacrificed” for the greater good of a damned mooch on society. You are fucking disgusting. I’ve never had much interaction with you on these boards, but this post by you is beyond the pale, IMO. I don’t give a fuck about all the poverty-ridden countries you’ve been to or how you think that Americans are all selfish and spoiled. Get the fuck over yourself.

I do not believe that anyone can say with a straight face that the actions of this nurse were justified or appropriate. It doesn’t MATTER how much good Planned Parenthood does. That does not excuse this nurse’s actions. This woman is a representative of Planned Parenthood and as such, is bound by not only the rules of that organization but even more so by the laws of the state that she works in. To circumvent those rules and laws is reprehensible and I hope her license to practice nursing is revoked. She had every intention of breaking the law and no amount of arguing the other side will convince me otherwise. Her actions far outweigh any argument to the contrary.

  1. The nurse states that she does not want to know that the man the girl is sleeping with is 31 years old. She lets the girl know that she KNOWS by law she is to call CPS when the girl reveals his age.

  2. The nurse coaches her on a way to cover up his identity by pretending it is one of her schoolmates instead.

  3. The nurse gives her information to go across state lines to get an abortion in another state whose rules would not be broken by the girl having an abortion there. She lets the girl know she is NOT allowed to tell the girl how to get an abortion elsewhere and then sneaks around that by saying she can “show” her but even covers that up after the fact - proving she knows that was wrong as well.

  4. It doesn’t matter for the nurse’s purposes that the girl was 20 and no actual crime was committed in that way - she believed she was helping someone commit a felony.

The nurse was WRONG. She has been suspended pending an investigation and if PP is anything like what most of the posters here seem to believe, she should be fired.

2

I’m sorry, I forgot to mention that A stands for Actress (the girl posing as a thirteen year old seeking an abortion), N stands for the nurse and F stands for the friend who made one remark during the part of the video that was shown on YouTube.

3

Assuming the description of the video is accurate, the nurse is in a tough spot. If she follows the letter of the law, the girl might leave, or otherwise not seek medical attention–whether that attention be an abortion or pre-natal care. If she doesn’t follow the letter of the law, the nurse’s job and maybe her professional license could be on the line. Looks to me like the nurse was trying as hard as she could to follow the law without scaring the kid off. She’s going to have to answer to her superiors for her actions. I’m not sure what the final decision should be here…I’d want to know more about the applicable law, clinic rules, and professional ethics first.

I’m pretty sure I don’t like the idea of an anti-abortion group setting up what amounts to a sting operation. Essentially, they’ve committed fraud on Planned Parenthood by misrepresenting the girl’s age and they’ve smuggled a hidden camera into what should have been a private conversation. Smacks of vigilante “justice”. I’m thinking something like that should be done by law enforcement, not by private citizens…

4

There was an article in todays NY Times, by a doctor, reflecting on the confidentiality between a doctor and a middle schooler.

The doctor, a parent herself, ends up concluding that the 13 year old has a right to confidentiality, and the doctor has a duty to provide it.

*“Your role as a physician is different than your role as a mother,” Dr. Ford said. “If you lose the trust of the kid, you’ve lost a lot; they won’t tell you what’s going on in the future, and that’s not in the best interests of the kid or the parent.”

If I had been his mother, I would have wanted to know. But I was his doctor, and he wanted it kept confidential. *

5

You might want to know if the nurse had seen any catastrophic botched abortions, or kids beaten and abandonded by their parents, or their 31 y/o step-fathers before you judge her soley as the mother of a 13 y/o.

Hell, I’ve seen 12 y/o that could pass for 17, and I’ve seen 13 y/o that were being pimped by their biological mothers. It would be so cool if the world was black and white.

6

Tough call, but I’m with the nurse, and I’m a parent.

Kids are nuts, they make all sorts of wrong calls, and sometimes they imagine a lot of shit coming down for their actions and they’re wrong. And sometimes they’re right.

I know of a kid who was sexually abused, by an older kid who his parents thought of as a friend. The parents were liberal and caring and had really talked up the “Tell us if anyone touches you inappropriately, we will deal with it” line, and the kid still didn’t tell them. For six years. (He was 10 or 11 when it happened.) But he told his doctor he was afraid he had AIDS (and he could have), and when he did, the doctor interviewed him, in the presence of his parents, asking if he had had sexual contact and, in the presence of his parents, he lied, and told the doctor he’d made wrong assumptions about AIDS.

Should the doctor have made arrangements to have him tested in such a way that his parents wouldn’t have known? At least that way he’d have gotten tested, instead of fearing for years that he might have a deadly disease.

7

Sorry, that was a bit of poorly placed hyperbole- I meant “sacrifice” as in “sacrifice to the gods” and obviously I don’t really advocate that. I didn’t foresee how that might be taken literally given the context of the thread. It’s hard to for me to express how thankful I am for Planned Parenthood. But clearly the way I tried wasn’t it. My only point was that Planned Parenthood does a lot more than just corrupting minors. Please don’t base your entire opinion of me on one misinterpretation of a poorly phrased post.

My personal opinion on the subject is that the nurse broke the law and should face the legal consequences. But at the same time, nursing is a tough job and when your goal is to make sure that people get the care they need, sometimes you make bad judgment calls. All I can say is that I’m glad my job doesn’t present me with problems like that and I’m glad nobody is videotaping me while I work.

8

The nurse was set up and put in a catch-22 situation.

The girl was doing the responsible thing by seeking an abortion. The kid would have fled if she thought CPS would be called or her boyfriend would get in trouble. At this point, PP did not have this girl’s full name or address or any other identifying information, so if the girl flees, the rape is not going to be reported, and there would be a pregnant 13-year-old out there who is too scared to seek help or medical care. By offering help, the nurse chose the lesser of two evils.

The nurse was clearly disturbed and disgusted by the situation, but she’s no dummy - she had one chance to help and she took it. It was a clear case of dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t.

In essence, there were two outcomes:

(1) Rapist goes free, and 13-year-old is pregnant and too scared to seek help, which endagers herself and her child
(2) Rapist goes free, and 13-year-old receives medical care, and possibly counseling/advice by PP medical professionals

Which is the better option? The nurse chose #2, and I applaud her for it.
p.s. I just want to add that I am also personally very grateful for Planned Parenthood and am disgusted by the actions of this group and their “sting” tactics.

9

Slightly different situation from sex under the age of consent, but I have been told (as part of my job reviewing medical research studies for ethics issues) that in the state of Illinois, a doctor cannot tell a minor’s parents of a pregnancy without that minor’s consent. The minor is the doctor’s patient, not the parents, and confidentiality is owed to that patient regardless of age.

I don’t know about this particular issue, however, and what being a mandated reporter may mean in this state when patient confidentiality becomes an issue intertwined with it. It’s not really an issue in my line of work but I suspect our pediatric and gynecological doctors may know much more on the subject.

10

I cannot respond to everything until I get home later this morning, but I felt that I needed to say here that I appreciate your reconsideration of your words and how they could be interpreted. I really cannot express how much differently I view you just for the above statement. Not very pit-like, but you took my rant against you very well and responded showing that you can even accept responsibility for a poor choice in words, something we don’t see often around here. Thank you.

11

There is something I don’t get. The nurse was breaking the law. If you believe she was not doing anything wrong doesn’t it follow that you believe the law should be changed? What’s the point of having laws if they do not have to be followed?

12

(Note: the video’s not working for me, so this response is based on the transcript in the OP.)

The nurse was wrong to break the spirit of the law. Planned Parenthood is right in suspending and investigating her.

If there’s a “sacrifice”, it should be on the altar of parental consent laws. Laws which cause young women to seek out illegal and unsafe abortions and lie to their parents should be changed, but they won’t be until girls die from illegal abortions, kill themselves when they find out they’re pregnant, or dump their unwanted babies in garbage cans. Preferably (and I speak in an efficacy sense, not in a wishing-this-on-anyone sense) the daughter of a high powered legislator.

13

I’m still going to take the same position I took in the previous thread. I don’t give a rat’s ass what the nurse did as the organization involved in making the tapes motives are suspect. At the very least we have theft of PP’s time and services, had the nurse followed whatever protocol was in place we could have then added wasted police and CPS resources investigating a non-crime. If the state in question feels there is a compelling interest in investigating PP in this matter it’s their bailiwick. Further I’ll note again that this is precisely why these anti-abortion nut jobs want these notification laws in the first place so they can get rid of access to abortion by the “death of a thousand cuts”.

14

I hope an unedited version turns up. The gap before frames 21551-21619 (Time 1:25:04-1:25:09), leading up to the nurse saying, “Ok, I didn’t hear the age," is sort of troubling. What did the actress or her friend say before that?

While I support the nurse being suspended and investigated, I don’t doubt that she’s got to have one of the hardest fucking jobs in the world. Dealing with a 13-year-old who’s been raped by a 31-year-old– you can’t help but feel that she hasn’t got the most supportive family or community about her. Sounds like exactly the type who would Google ‘lysol douche’ with her friend at the school library.

15

So what’s the general consensus on mandated reporting laws, then? Seems to me the people defending the nurse are saying, by implication, that mandated reporting laws are doing more harm than good.

(I refer here to mandated reporting of sexual abuse cases, not mandated parental consent laws; it’s obvious what the feeling is regarding the latter).

16

I didn’t watch the video again today, but it sounded to me more like the problem is age of consent vs. mandatory reporting. While I myself would have some issues with 31 y/o man sleeping with a 13 y/o (hallelujah, I have sons) . I think putting PP or any other voluntary medical relationship in this position is horrible. I think that’s just what the maker of this video wanted.

17

For what it’s worth, as a mandatory reporter myself, I think the laws are good. I also think that any MR worth their salt will inform their charges that they cannot make any promises of confidentiality if keeping that confidentially means that the children’s safety will be compromised. That’s actually the ‘standard speech’ that MR’s should give if they’re asked to keep a secret.

I can’t even imagine how morally responsible I would be if I knew one of my students was being sexually abused and didn’t report it because then the student wouldn’t feel free to come to me with other personal problems. Especially not if that student would up getting physically hurt by their abuser.

18

I suppose it depends on what happens after a report is filed.

Does CPS go find the girl and say, “a nurse at Planned Parenthood told us you were having sex with a 31-year-old”, or what?

19

I’ve no problem with the law being changed. I also recognize the need to sometimes bend or break laws.

20

Probably something along those lines. I know that, for instance, I’m legally mandated to report such knowledge directly to CPS and that responsibility can’t be shifted. If, for instance, I told my principal and didn’t report it myself, I’d have broken the law.