The Planned Parenthood thread fiasco revisited

[Shodan]

@Jackmannii

Since I am already on record (in the previous thread) as saying the Planned Parenthood nurse’s actions were wrong, I don’t think I can be accused of mere tu quoquery in saying that all illegal or deceptive actions on both sides of the abortion debate should be halted.

On the subject of “sting” operations, they have been conducted against so-called “crisis pregnancy centers”. CPCs advertise under the heading of “abortion services”, but are really anti-abortion operations that deceive women both as to their intent and their goals.

*“In July 2006, Rep. Henry Waxman (D‐CA) released a study which found that crisis pregnancy centers often mislead and misinform teenagers about the medical risks of abortion. Investigators posing as pregnant 17‐year olds seeking medical counseling called more than two dozen CPCs that receive federal funding. The report found that 87 percent of these CPCs provided either false or misleading information about the health effects of abortion. Specifically, several center employees told the women that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer, despite the overwhelming medical consensus that no such link exists. In addition, callers were incorrectly told that abortion could cause “permanent damage” that would affect their future ability to bear children. Finally, many centers continued to advance the myth of “post‐abortion syndrome,” even though scientific evidence shows that abortion does not cause significant long‐term psychological harm…In 2002, a University of Maryland student posed as a woman worried that she was pregnant. She called a crisis pregnancy center and made an appointment at the center’s office…Once at the clinic, the student mentioned that she might want to consider abortion care. At that point, a woman at the clinic said “Oh, you don’t want to do that. You’ll mess up your body.” The student indicated that the woman at the clinic was “really trying to scare me into not having [an abortion] as an option.” In fact, the anti‐choice Pearson Foundation’s How to Start and Operate Your Own Pro‐Life Outreach Crisis Pregnancy Center manual tells staff that “there is nothing wrong or dishonest if you don’t want to answer a question that may reveal your pro‐life position by changing the caller’s train of thought by asking a question in return.” As an example, the manual recommends answering the question “Are you a pro‐life center?” with “We are a pregnancy testing center. What is pro‐life?” After all, “[o]ur name of the game is to get the woman to come in as do the abortion chambers. Be put off by nothing. . . . Let nothing stop you.”.

@jsgoddess

It wasn’t a real girl with a real story and real emotions. It was a lie designed to elicit specific results. A con. We don’t always act the same way when faced with lying con artists who can change any aspect of their story to manipulate us in any direction they choose as we do to real people whose stories are stable because they are true.

Regards,
Shodan

[aruvqan]

My dog in this show is being female.

My personal take is that any request by any female of any age past menarch requesting birth control or abortion is between that female and the medical provider. I do NOT believe that someone wishing birth control or abortion should have to be reported to anybody.

Before you get into underage females not being able to consent to sex and it is rape … it may have been violent or date rape, and in fact abuse. That does not stop her from being terrified to confess to being coerced into sex. Sometimes what the parents may do will be eternally fucking worse than having a secret abortion at 13 and not letting anybody know they were raped.

To put it into perspective, how would you like it know to your entire family and church as a ‘fucking slut harlot’ from the time you are 13 until you can escape at 18 for having an abortion even though you were raped … some fundies are that stupidly horrible. A simple secret abortion, and she can continue being seen as the ‘good daughter’ until she can escape. At least we dont stone our rape victims.

[wonky]

@WhyNot

Yes, that’s my position. And yes, it might result in this particular girl being beaten or killed or seeking out a dangerous illegal abortion that could kill her. Maybe she’ll wear baggy sweatshirts, deliver the baby and try to flush it down the toilet. And I think that totally, completely and utterly sucks. I think that’s evil and reprehensible and shouldn’t happen in a rational society. But I think that’s what the people who made this law have to face - that’s the consequence of their law. If they see that, then maybe, just maybe, they’ll change the law.

I’m for following the law and facing the consequences when I’m the one facing the consequences of a bad law.

I’m not so much for it when it’s a presumptive 13 year old victim facing the consequences of the bad law.

To me, that’s just me putting my self-righteousness ahead of the girl’s life. “Look! Look what you made me do!”

[wonky]

Forgot to finish my thought.

A lot of us want to hide behind the law and claim the law makes us do X. In truth, it’s our fear of the repercussions that make us do X. If there’s something we consider immoral, we shouldn’t say doing it was the fault of the law but the fault of our fear. Understandable fear, and often justified fear. But it’s saying “I will sacrifice you so that I may be safe.”

[WhyNot]

@jsgoddess

If there’s something we consider immoral, we shouldn’t say doing it was the fault of the law but the fault of our fear. Understandable fear, and often justified fear. But it’s saying “I will sacrifice you so that I may be safe.”

To some extent, yes. I feel that what Planned Parenthood provides is so extremely important that I wouldn’t put them at risk by my actions. Push the populous too far, and they may decide to cut funding, not renew a lease or otherwise drive PP out of town. So in that sense, I think keeping PP safe is more important than one patient’s abortion.

As an individual my actions might be different. I’ve said before that if abortion is outlawed, I will become a black market medical/herbal abortion provider. That’s breaking the (theoretical) law for sure. That’s taking a huge personal risk, and I’d be okay with that because of the huge moral imperative - and because if I go down, I’m not taking other providers down with me. I don’t hold the law sacrosanct; I just think in this particular instance, it’s better to follow the unjust law to demonstrate it’s unjustness.

[wonky]

WhyNot, I think you and I are very close on this issue. Agreed that there are more concerns here than a single girl and a single nurse. And I agree, too, on the issue of breaking the law were the law to start outlawing abortion.

Where I don’t agree is that following this law will (effectively) demonstrate its unjustness.

[Stuffy]

@jsgoddess

Forgot to finish my thought.

A lot of us want to hide behind the law and claim the law makes us do X. In truth, it’s our fear of the repercussions that make us do X. If there’s something we consider immoral, we shouldn’t say doing it was the fault of the law but the fault of our fear. Understandable fear, and often justified fear. But it’s saying “I will sacrifice you so that I may be safe.”

I’m with you on this, though I wouldn’t always agree its fear based. Bricker for instance, (I believe) finds the law sacrosanct, it is the only problem I generally have with him on various positions (don’t bother trying to look any history between us, I lurk often and don’t always engage). I happen to believe that in a conflict between what ‘s right and the law, I’ll do what’s right and damn the consequences. That’s why I side with the nurse in this case.

[Strassia]

@aruvqan

My dog in this show is being female.

My personal take is that any request by any female of any age past menarch requesting birth control or abortion is between that female and the medical provider. I do NOT believe that someone wishing birth control or abortion should have to be reported to anybody.

Before you get into underage females not being able to consent to sex and it is rape … it may have been violent or date rape, and in fact abuse. That does not stop her from being terrified to confess to being coerced into sex. Sometimes what the parents may do will be eternally fucking worse than having a secret abortion at 13 and not letting anybody know they were raped.

To put it into perspective, how would you like it know to your entire family and church as a ‘fucking slut harlot’ from the time you are 13 until you can escape at 18 for having an abortion even though you were raped … some fundies are that stupidly horrible. A simple secret abortion, and she can continue being seen as the ‘good daughter’ until she can escape. At least we dont stone our rape victims.

You do realize that menarch can start early for some girls. The youngest mother on record was five years old. I had friend who got her period in the third grade. Should she have been able to go get the pill or a diaphragm, no questions asked?

Jonathan

[Bricker]

@Stuffy

I’m with you on this, though I wouldn’t always agree its fear based. Bricker for instance, (I believe) finds the law sacrosanct, it is the only problem I generally have with him on various positions (don’t bother trying to look any history between us, I lurk often and don’t always engage). I happen to believe that in a conflict between what ‘s right and the law, I’ll do what’s right and damn the consequences. That’s why I side with the nurse in this case.

But other people who violate the law also believe they’re doing the right thing, as opposed to the legal thing. Then abortion patients get harrassed, clinics get bombed, abortion doctors shot.

This is not to say that blind following the law is the right approach. But while civil disobedience has a long and storied tradition, it usually involves public violation of the law and willingness to accept consequences. Surreptitious violation of the law isn’t quite the same thing.

If you say the nurse should be able to disregard the law in furtherance of her own sense of right and wrong, how can you argue with anyone else who says the same thing?

[Blalron]

@Bricker

If you say the nurse should be able to disregard the law in furtherance of her own sense of right and wrong, how can you argue with anyone else who says the same thing?

I honestly can’t. I just have to judge the individual circumstances on a case by case basis.

[Stuffy]

@Bricker

But other people who violate the law also believe they’re doing the right thing, as opposed to the legal thing. Then abortion patients get harrassed, clinics get bombed, abortion doctors shot.

This is not to say that blind following the law is the right approach. But while civil disobedience has a long and storied tradition, it usually involves public violation of the law and willingness to accept consequences. Surreptitious violation of the law isn’t quite the same thing.

I didn’t say you were wrong, just that I had a problem with that view.

If you say the nurse should be able to disregard the law in furtherance of her own sense of right and wrong, how can you argue with anyone else who says the same thing?

Well, not to sound wigglely (is that a word?) I didn’t say she should, I’m just not going to get worked up over it and I am quite prepared to look the other way were I in the untenable position of having to mete out the punishment for her actions. You know in my mind I keep trying to play with the circumstances of this case in order to come up with some equitable solution and I can’t. I think both laws are bad here and it pisses me off that the people of that state put their citizens is such an odious position.

[Bricker]

@Blalron

I honestly can’t. I just have to judge the individual circumstances on a case by case basis.

Sure. And with everyone else judging each case on his or her own (but slightly different) merits, I’m suggesting the result will not be harmony.

When you live in a society, you agree to give up some of your ability to act unilaterally and accept the judgment of the society.

[Mtgman]

Aren’t strict liability laws wonderful? Look what they cause. A web of more laws intended to force a rainbow colored world into black and white. People put in situations where they can either hurt someone in one way or hurt them in another way and the law gives them no choice but to hurt someone or become a criminal.

I have zero tolerance for strict liability laws. Cases like this are part of the reason.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Der_Trihs]

@WhyNot

Yes, that’s my position. And yes, it might result in this particular girl being beaten or killed or seeking out a dangerous illegal abortion that could kill her. Maybe she’ll wear baggy sweatshirts, deliver the baby and try to flush it down the toilet. And I think that totally, completely and utterly sucks. I think that’s evil and reprehensible and shouldn’t happen in a rational society. But I think that’s what the people who made this law have to face - that’s the consequence of their law. If they see that, then maybe, just maybe, they’ll change the law.

Or maybe they’ll cheer it on. The motivation behind the anti-abortion movement, and behind such laws is one of malice and tyranny towards women and girls. If the laws kill some ( more ) girls, most of the law’s supporters won’t care - or they’ll actively enjoy the thought of it.

[Mtgman]

@Der_Trihs

Or maybe they’ll cheer it on. The motivation behind the anti-abortion movement, and behind such laws is one of malice and tyranny towards women and girls. If the laws kill some ( more ) girls, most of the law’s supporters won’t care - or they’ll actively enjoy the thought of it.

Dipshit.

Enjoy,
Steven

[FinnAgain]

@Mtgman

Dipshit.

Come on, be fair now… Der has somehow found a way to communicate with the real world while he’s trapped inside a comic book. Surely this deserves some sort of accolade.

[gigi]

@nyctea scandiaca

That’s the problem… how would CPS find the girl? No one knows who she is. They don’t have her full name or address, because she likely would have fled the office – they couldn’t physically hold her or force her to give her information.

So, for all those who think the nurse was wrong: Do you think that she should have reported it, even if it meant the girl would flee without giving her name, which would mean not only would the rapist go free, but the girl would be left pregnant, scared, alone, with no help? Is this what should have happened??

Hey at least the nurse followed the “rules,” right? Even if it resulted in a WORSE outcome? Is that your position??

Wouldn’t it have been possible to collect info about the girl and later report the rape? It’s not like she had to pick up the phone with the girl still there…?

[Mtgman]

@FinnAgain

Come on, be fair now… Der has somehow found a way to communicate with the real world while he’s trapped inside a comic book. Surely this deserves some sort of accolade.

Must be a DC title, the Marvel books have more realistic characters.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Dangerosa]

@gigi

Wouldn’t it have been possible to collect info about the girl and later report the rape? It’s not like she had to pick up the phone with the girl still there…?

That would not be ethical. Its an ethical catch twenty two. There is no legal and ethical choice the nurse can make.

[Blalron]

@Bricker

Sure. And with everyone else judging each case on his or her own (but slightly different) merits, I’m suggesting the result will not be harmony.

When you live in a society, you agree to give up some of your ability to act unilaterally and accept the judgment of the society.

It really depends on whether it’s malum per se or malum prohibutum. There may be cases where following the law is “malum per se” and the penalty for openly disobedying is too unreasonable to ask anyone to take the consequences of civil disobedience.

Sometimes malum prohibitum is justified. It’s arbitrary that we choose to drive on the right side of the road, but we as a society have to pick a side, or all hell will break loose.

On the other hand, I deny that all hell will break loose if I run a red light when it’s obvious nobody is around. Nor will all hell break loose if I smoke marijuana or frequent prostitutes. Your “rules are rules” argument can only take me so far.