The Pledge of Allegiance should not be recited every day in school

Calm, calm, now – you wouldn’t tear out the pages of books containing the pledge, now would you? And I don’t think informed consent, exactly, is the issue.

Strictly speaking, a pledge can and often does mean more than simply “promise”: it involves offering up some sort of security against the possibility of breaking your promise. Public television has it almost right: you give money to pledge your support for The French Chef braises Alistair Cooke with Vegetables from the Victory Garden, or some such: if you change your mind later (as you will if you stuff Alistair with as much arugula as Julia insists on), they still have your money just as if you hadn’t decided that the Victory Garden was a Communist plot (Ha!). But as it was applied to me, the pledge meant no more than all those other promises that were cajoled, coerced, bribed and extorted daily from us kids: to honor this, obey them, safeguard that and for Pete’s sake keep your hands off those! All of these, until we began to be old enough to make finer distinctions, we understood to be just riders on the first contract we ever made – “I’ll be good.”

The Pledge didn’t call for any specific action, though, at least not right then, and it was a comfortable thing for me to be loyal to my country under circumstances that didn’t involve any immediate sacrifice. Call it St. Joseph’s baby patriotism. And, while all of us might internally qualify such a vague pronouncement differently, I don’t feel I’ve ever had to renege.

That said, I’m not for the Pledge being recited daily in schools – there are more words, and better ones, to serve the same and larger purposes.

Bush and the neo-cons were motivated to invade Iraq under a clear notion that “we’re best, we know best, let’s pick a mid-east country (with good oil reserves) and impose our way on them to show the world we ARE best” and Congress showed a mixture of agreement and naive acceptance of manipulated data at a time of high stress.

Several good suggestions here and in other posts. I agree with the teacher who suggested saving it for special events, especially of the patriotic and/or historical nature. As a child I associated what the pledge said with the history we were being taught. A stronger effort should be made to to stress our history and the nature of our grand experiment.

I like Tom’s suggestion of teaching active responsibility as a citizen along with any type of theme song or pledge. I remember patriotic feelings but as children we were only taught the superficial details of how it all works. Let’s get kids involved at an early age. In Maine kids in a primary school were instrumental in getting MAcDonalds to change their containers to something biodegradable. A small but worthy contribution for school children.

I don’t know about that. Smacks of political indoctrination to me, and I’d approach things like this very, very carefully.

Citizenship exercises, on the other hand, ought to be apolitical. Yes, of course I realize there are people with specific objections to particular aspects to certain parts of these traditions, which is why these exercises are voluntary. That doesn’t mean they don’t have their place.

Not an American, which is why I suppose I’ve always reacted to the ongoing Pledge business with " :dubious: Why are you pledging allegiance to a flag?" As an outsider, I’ve always seen it as an odd loyalty oath sort of thing.

Agreed. An excellent way to put aside mindless rote repetition for mindful education in what citizenship is all about.

I am calm; I didn’t say < raving > “pledge supporters are tyrannical supporters of the status quo, who sacrifice their children’s freedom on the altar of patriotism !!” < raving > :slight_smile:

Frankly, I think the pledge is…tacky at best. It reminds me of the parents who drag children along to protests, and have them carry little signs or wear shirts with slogans on them. I always want to scream “leave your children out of it, jerk !” .

In my view, it is a fundamental offense to notions of independence and free thought for a loyalty pledge even to exist.

I’m all for ending the tradition of playing the national anthem at sporting events (except for international matches) as well as dumping the loyalty oath. Whoeve called it banal nailed it.

It seems to me that the whole underlying purpose of education in this country is to extract that oath from it’s students… the students being essentially pre-citizens.

As schools are little but state indoctrination, they have every business making you say the Pledge as much as they like. If federal money was withheld until the states made it curriculum to say the Pledge five times a day while facing Washington D.C., it would happen within two years or so.

If schools were for a purpose other than state indoctrination, I’d feel differently.

However, I do agree on the point of solemnity. It’s not something that ever really made it into our hearts because it was not taught to us as a meaningful oath. We were not taught what oaths are or what they signify. As such, it was learned by rote, like multiplication tables in the early days of grade school.

So my contention is that our educators are merely fucking it up that students don’t come out with a meaningful understanding of the oath they take.

I’d like if we had our own national anthem instead of a cheap knock-off of England’s.

As far as dumping our banal oath,… what would education be for then?

That’s disgusting. The right not to vote is as sacred as the right to vote, it’s called “FREEDOM”, I know most of America missed the memo, but I’m really surprised you of all people didn’t. Freedom means the right to choose, choose ANYTHING. People like you encouraging ignorant people to vote is part of the problem. Everyone should have the RIGHT to vote sure, but only people who pay attention and care about it should actually vote.

Every ignorant vote cancels out one educated vote, because the ignorant person doesn’t KNOW if the person they voted for represents them or not, therefore if represented, it is only by accident.

This brings me to the pledge. I think kids should be cautioned against saying it, because it’s an oath, and they should never be coerced into a solemn oath. It is the lack of understanding of the power of ritual that causes these problems. An oath is a special communication of something far more important than everyday speech. If we water it down then it is meaningless to a kid, that’s like a slave promising not to run away. However, if you tell them it is solemn and it really means something, then when they do it, they will have truly meant it. It’s the same sort of behavior that causes christians to enforce baptism on their children, when baptism is supposed to be a solemn choice. (for most protestants) It has watered down the meaning, and now no one has faith in the churches anymore because so many people believe out of coercion rather than a true deep conviction.

All of these decisions are important to be made on one’s own without coercion. They become so much more meaningful, and will be far more formative for a child than anything else.

How exactly are you protecting freedom by FORCING children to take an oath to protect freedom or coercing adults into voting?

Erek

How is it political? Were the manufacturers of biodegradable containers Democrats and the former suppliers to McDonald’s Republicans?

Getting students to express their desires to other parts of society (business, government, etc.) is an important skill to learn, and should be a part of schooling. Now teachers should not choose what desires are to be expressed, but we should not mistake encouraging kids to express themselves for telling kids what to express. I’ve worked with many conscientious teachers who are fully aware of the difference, despite media perceptions disputing this. Now that I think about it, I have never encountered a teacher who told their students what to write about rather than letting them show the initiative and choose. I’m sure there’ someone out there who does that, but we don’t ban driving cars just because there are crazies out there who use them to mow down bicyclists.

In one way I agree, and in another, I disagree. Once I asked someone what the “community service” they had done was, and they replied that they were working on behalf of the Democratic Party - I don’t think that qualifies as community service. However, I view working for equal rights for homosexuals as community service even though it is associated with a certain political position. Do you see what I mean by the distinction?

Encouraging people to vote, and characterizing the failure to vote as an abnegation of the responsibilities of a citizen commensurate with that of any scofflaw, is perfectly okay by me. I don’t think people who refuse to inform themselves and vote should be legally punished, but neither should they be immune to scorn. They may be exercising a right, but it’s a shabby, negative right akin to the government’s inability to compel you to shower and shave: you may have a “right” to be slovenly, but you don’t have a right to everyone pretending you don’t stink. If you wish to publicly withhold your vote for principled reasons and can and will articulate why, well, you might uphold your obligation as a citizen that way. Actually I’d like space for that on the ballot. But I don’t think much of the “freedom not to vote” and here’s why: because everyone’s vote helps the whole country.

I don’t think the American experiment is about minimizing one’s obligations to one’s fellow citizens to the greatest possible extent, nor would I much like a society constructed to achieve that. Civilization is largely a cooperative endeavor, and though we in the U.S. pride ourselves on our rugged individualism, few of us are eager to actually become (in the words of the slogan) an “army of one.” So long as we want a polity at all, and to take advantage of the benefits organized society confers, we need to pick and choose a little bit. We’re not going to let everyone opt out of any activity or restriction they don’t much care for, or who’d pay taxes? We almost lost the country altogether because the freedom to own slaves was an abomination offensive to moral reason, and it had to go at whatever cost. At the same time, we have a wonderful Bill of Rights, and have generally, with some backsliding but mostly moving forward, extended those freedoms to more people and more fields of activity as we have grown. Wheresoever on the gun control spectrum you are, you have to love a country so confident in its people’s ability to choose their leaders and legislators that it codifies even the electoral losers’ right to arm themselves as they exercise their right to denounce the government.

Back to voting. Low voter turnouts harm a democracy because a) they undermine the legitimacy of the democratic process – what’s the practical difference between a country in which only a certain elite may vote and one in which only a certain elite does vote? b) it restricts the pool of candidates for office to those reflecting the values (and often the ethnicity) of the voting portion of the public; and c) the process is self-reinforcing – those who feel the government does not represent them are less likely to vote, and those who are happy with the results of an election are more likely to do so. So the voiceless class gets bigger and bigger. If everyone voted every time, candidates would appear to appeal to those groups who now aren’t considered worth approaching. Result, a more representative democracy and a more perfect union. Hence the case for a civic obligation to vote.

Oh, and for kids in Maine to appeal to McDonald’s to scrap styrofoam containers, there’s little political indoctrination there. Even McDonald’s is happy they did it (for one thing, it’s a lot cheaper), conservatives do not love nonbiodegradable garbage, and all political parties were equally involved – hardly at all. Of course, we mustn’t forget that paper replaced foam, and that one of Maine’s largest industries is … oh, why taint it, it was still a good thing.

Your argument is llawed. There is no ‘voiceless’ class. I am only advocating not coercing the ignorant into voting. I am not saying we take away their right to vote. Just because you can cajole someone into voting, doesn’t mean you can cajole them into not being ignorant. Rather than cajoling them for not voting, try and educate them in the issues so they feel more comfortable voting next time around, if you feel that strongly about voting. However, I bet everyone that voted cuz Sean Penn and Puff Daddy said they should voted democrat, so Sean Penn and Puff Daddy just increased the number of times THEY voted, rather than increasing engagement.

Erek

Oh yeah, we are discussing voting here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=341961

That doesn’t make any sense at all. Every person on the planet that knows anything about politics, that goes from Saddam Hussein to Gerald Ford to Noam Chomsky knows the United States is the most powerful country in the world. I find it ludicrous, and without any basis in reality, that the United States invaded Iraq simply to demonstrate that the United states is “the best.”

The view that we invaded Iraq so that Bush could line his cronies pockets and so that we could seize strategic oil reserves is at least an idea we could build a logical argument around, I’d still disagree with it. But I see absolutely no basis in the idea that the United States invaded simply to “show off.” Do you have any support for this theory other than “you simply believe” that was their motivations?

It’s not like the neo-con movement is silent on this issue, there’s tons of books, websites and et cetera where neo-cons talking about their world views. There’s tons of speeches where Bush outlines his goals for the world. Do you have any support in any actual source material for the opinion that we invaded Iraq simply to show that “we’re the best?”

And keep in mind that argument is materially different from the argument that “the neo-cons wanted to invade in order to impose their preferred political system on another country in order to demonstrate to the rest of the region that they need to follow that example or suffer military action.”

“Most powerful” is not equal to “best.” I can recall any number of kooks on the Far Right insisting that the USSR was far more powerful than the USA–none of them ever claimed the USSR was best.

I take my belief from the horrifying resemblance between the prewar actions and post-war rationalizations of the administration when compared against Wolfowitz’s term paper.

Beyond that, this is becoming a hijack–one that I suspect will not provide any more information than has already been shared numerous times on the board or that anyone will find persuasive in rethinking their own cherished beliefs.

As another non-American, here are my two cents (two pennies?):

It’s a pledge. Children shouldn’t be forced to swear to anything. No-one should be forced to swear to anything. Educate them about it, teach them what the words mean and stand for, perfectly fine; it’s a noble sentiment. But it could be the nicest, most well-meaning pledge in the world, and it would still be wrong to force kids to recite it.

And if you disagree, surely everyone knows the worst way to get a kid to like something is to force them to do it? If you’re trying to get them to eat their vegetables, standing there until they do it might make them eat them, but they won’t like it. And as soon as your back’s turned, they’ll find any excuse not to. Just…don’t make such a big deal out of it. Let them arrive at their own opinions.

Unless you’re worried that without constant pledging they’ll all become communists. :stuck_out_tongue:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written for the popular children’s magazine Youth’s Companion by socialist author and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy on 11 October 1892.

Too late!

But… In 1954, after a campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Knights of Columbus, Senator Homer Ferguson of Michigan sponsored a bill to amend the pledge to include the words under God, to distinguish the U.S. from the officially atheist Soviet Union, and to remove the appearance of flag and nation worship.