The Pledge of Allegiance should not be recited every day in school

[Martin_Hyde]

@tomndebb

“Most powerful” is not equal to “best.” I can recall any number of kooks on the Far Right insisting that the USSR was far more powerful than the USA–none of them ever claimed the USSR was best.

I take my belief from the horrifying resemblance between the prewar actions and post-war rationalizations of the administration when compared against Wolfowitz’s term paper.

Beyond that, this is becoming a hijack–one that I suspect will not provide any more information than has already been shared numerous times on the board or that anyone will find persuasive in rethinking their own cherished beliefs.

I agree about this being a hijack, we’re getting somewhat far away from the Pledge of Allegiance issue.

Howeve I do disagree that this is something that has been discussed before, or at least from what I’ve seen. The theory you put forward here is not one I’ve really seen before.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

A related question: can public schoolteachers be legally required to lead students in the Pledge?

I find it abhorrent: pledging to a flag is a fetish, is the worst sort of thinking, elevating a symbol above people and encouraging tribalist nationalism. I want kids to be able to think, to empathize, to examine critically their own country and other countries, to ally themselves with people, not with states.

And I’m going to be an elementary school teacher in a couple years, and I worry about whether my ability to keep a job will be contingent on my willingness to lead children through a ritual that I consider harmful to their future citizenship.

Daniel

[cosmosdan]

@Mr. Moto

I don’t know about that. Smacks of political indoctrination to me, and I’d approach things like this very, very carefully.

Citizenship exercises, on the other hand, ought to be apolitical. Yes, of course I realize there are people with specific objections to particular aspects to certain parts of these traditions, which is why these exercises are voluntary. That doesn’t mean they don’t have their place.

What the hell are you talking about? Political indoctrination?? One child in particular was concerned about the environment and got other kids involved and the community to get MacDonalds to stop useing styrofoam. What’s the prblem with children realizing that as citizens they are not helpless?

[The_King_of_Soup]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

A related question: can public schoolteachers be legally required to lead students in the Pledge?

I’m not sure. Not in California: http://www.aclunc.org/students/pledge.html

Of course, students can’t be compelled to take the pledge: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624 , and by and large students are held to have a more limited version of First Amendment liberties than adults: http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hazelwood.html , with school officials the appointed arbiters of drawing the line. But that doesn’t quite add up to a national teacher’s right to refuse to lead students in the pledge – they don’t have the right to tailor their other instruction to their personal beliefs, and if we were talking about evolution rather than the pledge, I think many people would find their rhetoric somewhat changed. I’d love to have someone who really knew what s/he was talking about to jump in right now.

As to the rest: anyone who favors the First Amendment should be able to recognize metonymy. We pledge allegiance to the flag as a symbol of giving it to our friends, neighbors, countrymen and elected government, not because we expect a holy flame to burst from the top of the flagpole and begin speaking in stentorian tones, telling us what to do. If you’re going to be a teacher, (and congratulations, I bet you’ll be a great one) you should know that part of your job will be explaining why your charges don’t have to recite the Pledge. If part of your job is also to lead the Pledge for those who will, that’s just a test of how good an impartial and evenhanded instructor you are. If you take my advice and lobby for other recitations, there may be more teaching and no conflict at all. Just don’t be a teacher who thinks that because there’s a right to disagree, there’s an inherent right not to learn. And good for you. I’d be happy for someone like you to teach my kids, and this is no idle compliment, because I have three.

[cosmosdan]

@Martin Hyde

That doesn’t make any sense at all. Every person on the planet that knows anything about politics, that goes from Saddam Hussein to Gerald Ford to Noam Chomsky knows the United States is the most powerful country in the world. I find it ludicrous, and without any basis in reality, that the United States invaded Iraq simply to demonstrate that the United states is “the best.”

Just my 2 cents. As Tom said, best is not most powerful. I agree with Tom’s statement and have felt that way since before we actually went in. It started after reading this web site

Top with economic greed {we deserve the money, after all, we’re the best}

[Der_Trihs]

@Martin Hyde

That doesn’t make any sense at all. Every person on the planet that knows anything about politics, that goes from Saddam Hussein to Gerald Ford to Noam Chomsky knows the United States is the most powerful country in the world. I find it ludicrous, and without any basis in reality, that the United States invaded Iraq simply to demonstrate that the United states is “the best.”

The view that we invaded Iraq so that Bush could line his cronies pockets and so that we could seize strategic oil reserves is at least an idea we could build a logical argument around, I’d still disagree with it. But I see absolutely no basis in the idea that the United States invaded simply to “show off.” Do you have any support for this theory other than “you simply believe” that was their motivations?

It’s not like the neo-con movement is silent on this issue, there’s tons of books, websites and et cetera where neo-cons talking about their world views. There’s tons of speeches where Bush outlines his goals for the world. Do you have any support in any actual source material for the opinion that we invaded Iraq simply to show that “we’re the best?”

I think this refers to the claim I’ve often heard from the right, that America is ( or was ) regarded as a paper tiger, unwilling to do what was necessary.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

@Der Trihs

I think this refers to the claim I’ve often heard from the right, that America is ( or was ) regarded as a paper tiger, unwilling to do what was necessary.

Damn, first thing that brought to mind was Nixon and “pitiful, helpless giant”:

“This is not an invasion of Cambodia,” President Nixon had told the nation on April 30 as he disclosed that U.S. troops were invading Cambodia. A president who had campaigned on a promise to end the war was widening it. If he did not, he said, America would be “a pitiful, helpless giant.”

American intelligence, we were told, had located a major North Vietnamese headquarters in Cambodia, and U.S. forces were going to seize it. What they found was a bunch of huts.