So…does doing any single one of those things qualify one as a narcissist? Or would a true narcissist do all of them? Is there a cutoff point, a degree of narcissism? If I don’t do any of those things, but I do have a tendency for tardiness, can I get a pass? No? How many thoughtless and inconsiderate things can I get away with, without being labeled as a narcissist who ‘cares about no one but herself’? How many thoughtless and inconsiderate things do you do? None? Possible, I guess, but seems unlikely…
Just because you’re a punctual person doesn’t mean that you’re exempt from narcissism. I’d be willing to bet that there are a lot of people in this thread who are living in glass houses…
People, like Brown Eyed Girl, claiming that THE people that complain about late people inconviencing THEM are the actual narcissists was the point. The point being that the concept is retarded.
It all about a persons chosen actions affecting someone else negatively, and more importantly, them not caring about it.
Don’t get me wrong, I certainly ain’t in the late = automatic narcissist = hitler camp.
But if it is cronic, IMO you are at least being a rude ass to the people who are waiting on you. Just like the other examples of rude I gave.
Well, that makes you an exception in this thread, billfish! I think maybe I love you a little bit!
And I take no exception to those who are frequently late being referred to as ‘rude’.
Even ‘inconsiderate’. I don’t defend lateness or try to pass it off as a good thing. But don’t try to tell me that I’m any more ‘selfish’ or ‘narcissistic’ than most other people. Don’t make global judgments about my character based on one failing.
You need help moving - I’m there for ya, pal. You need a loan to pay the rent 'cuz its been a tough month - I’m writing the check now. You need someone to take you to work at the crack of dawn 'cuz your car won’t start, well, give me a few minutes to throw on some clothes and I’ll be there for you. You need a sympathetic ear to bend in the middle of the night 'cuz you’re going through a tough time, I am on the phone with you. Ask me to meet you at 1 for a lunch date, well…I’ll be there, but I may be a little late.
Yeah, call me narcissistic for thinking so, but I believe that I am a good person.
Even though I’m often late…
besides you already said that you avoid these people when you can - which is the smart thing to do - but, if you can’t, then you need to cultivate a bit of zen about the whole issue. don’t be a hater! you know what they say - hatred is like eating poison and expecting the other person to die!
You know, that was almost exactly what I thought when I realized that replying to something else she had said was going to be pointless?
Nobody else was offended by “Punctuamaniacs”, were they? Cause I’m honestly not trying to get on anyone’s nerves here. I’d apologize to the OP for it, cause she seemed offended, but yeah, showed up a bit late for that.:smack:
I would say those people are inconsiderate, rude or socially inept. Narcissists? Not really. I think there’s a lot more to narcissism than doing something that bugs some people. I do find a certain amount of conceit in thinking that what someone is doing or how someone acts, although it may affect you, is really *about *you. There probably are chronically late people who really don’t give a damn about their chronic lateness or who it impacts, but IME, those are outliers. The vast majority that I know realize how it negatively impacts their and others’ lives and wish they could conquer that demon once and for all. They often try harder, make progress, and later backslide, just like procrastinators and the disorganized. It can be quite frustrating and discouraging for even the chronically late person, believe it or not. It’s not a reflection on whether they respect others any more than it is on whether they value their job or how much they want to be at their kid’s recital.
See, I’d like you to point out where I claimed that people who complain about being inconvenienced by lateness are narcissists. Hint: it’s not the complaining that makes someone a narcissist.
Assuming they don’t is misguided and unhelpful. You are, however, entitled to be angry, disappointed, exasperated and fully justified in feeling that way about being inconvenienced. If you want to complain about it, that would be understandable as well. Just don’t assume they don’t care and aren’t dealing with it in their own (albeit perhaps ineffective) way.
Cutting in line in front of someone (in cultures where queues are respected as a rule) does not simply reduce to “something that bugs some people.” It clearly implies certain things about the person: that they are self-centered; that they are focused so narrowly on their own well being that they are either blissfully unaware of, or consciously neglectful of, consideration for other people; that they lack empathy. It is not a stretch to label such behavior as narcissistic.
Who is saying it is about “you” (the victim)? The very point is that it is NOT about the victim – it is about the person who is late – who is more concerned with what THEY want to do, how THEY want to spend their time, than any consideration of those who are impacted by their lateness.
This is something I cannot get my mind around, because for me it is so trivial to be on time if I have empathy for others. I simply don’t see where these people are being tripped up if they genuinely are trying not to be late. Unless they are genuinely stupid, I honestly don’t see what is causing the problem. I don’t mean that as a criticism – I honestly don’t understand. Is it hard to remember how long it takes to get from A to B, or how long it takes to get up in the morning? Is it hard for you to tell people “oops, I’ve got to run – got to meet someone” or to remember that you need to get gas or pick up some groceries? Could you give me an explicit example of where things go wrong? Keep in mind that there are certainly genuine excuses like the poo blowouts mentioned earlier – I’m talking about chronic lateness without chronic uncontrollable factors such as babies, small children, or a late husband.
That may well be, and you can infer that someone who is late to an event, but doesn’t have an excuse you deem valid lacks empathy. But you wouldn’t necessarily be right. First you have to establish that their lateness has anything to do with you at all.
Victim? Really? Someone who waits for someone else who is late is a victim? I’d say that’s overstating things a bit. And how do you know the late person is more concerned about what they want to do? How do you know they just lack time management skills? It’s pretty simple. Some people are neat and organized, others are messy. Some people have people skills, others are socially awkward. Some people are punctual, others are not. The skills (or lack thereof) and personality traits a person has does not reflect on how they feel about the people affected by those skills or personality traits.
People who wear perfume or fail to deodorize their bodies have no consideration for people who are sensitive to odors. People who walk slow have no consideration for fast walkers and their need to be some where else. People who need to buy a cup of coffee at 5am have no consideration for people who need to sleep at 5am. People who take their dogs out in public have no consideration for people who are afraid of dogs. People who talk about their children have no consideration for people who don’t like children. Or they lack empathy. Or they are genuinely stupid.
Oh, and people who are sensitive to odors, are fast walkers, need to sleep at 5am, are afraid of dogs, and don’t like children are victims.
It all makes perfect sense.
Chronically late people, IME, are more often than not disorganized. They don’t manage time well, they don’t estimate time well, and they don’t prioritize effectively.
Is that difficult to understand?
Here’s a litany of what you would deem excuses that have not a thing to do with the “victim”:
I couldn’t find my keys.
I took a different route because I was running late, thinking it would be better.
I didn’t put gas in the car yesterday because I really wanted to get home earlier, and forgot to leave a bit earlier to do it this morning.
I was working on this beast of project and lost track of time.
I’ve been so busy, I’ve just been running all day long.
That the late person feels bad about being late and, many times, personally inadequate and self-loathing, demonstrates that they don’t lack empathy or remorse. But empathy doesn’t drive the behavior.
Yeah, I was defending being late, too, until I realized that most people weren’t talking about my sometimes five-minute late problem; they meant 30 minutes or more. That ticks me off, too. I might be five minutes late, but barring something beyond my control such as a traffic accident, I would not be 30 minutes late. That’s just rude.
First of all, I used the term “victim” merely as a convenient shorthand for “the person who is kept waiting.” Sorry if it caused a distraction. Technically, the person who is kept waiting is a victim, but it is a strong word, and I don’t wish to derail the discussion on such a petty semantic point.
As I said in the last post, and which you haven’t given a satisfying response to, is that I don’t understand how these people can be “messy” (as it were) while empathetic at the same time. If you are empathetic, then if you realize that your problem is a drag on other people, the ethical thing to do is prioritize fixing the problem rather than letting it continue to affect others. I don’t understand is how it is possible for someone to not be able to “man up” and fix this problem. I think they are indulging the problem, the same way some indulge in procrastination – you might say it is a habit you can’t break (as though you are not in control of your body), but you really just aren’t motivated enough to (we aren’t talking about quitting cigarettes here, we are talking basic organization). Why aren’t you motivated enough to fix your organizational problems? Is it because at the end of the day your concern for others takes a back seat to indulging your bad habits?
If they are aware of this, and do nothing about it, then yes, absolutely.
Not really. You don’t get it. If they are aware of a negative affect on others, and they know what they can do to fix it, and they don’t, then yes, they lack empathy.
I understand, but none of that is difficult to fix if you try. Either that or you are stupid. Let’s look at your examples:
Get a basket or a key hanger. Always put your keys there. This will be a habit you will have to develop. Think of it like learning to play the piano, except much easier, and you will master it within a month’s time.
This shows bad judgment. Everybody makes this kind of mistake from time to time, but not often enough to make them chronically late. Stop taking routes you are unfamiliar with, or give yourself enough time to experiment.
You sound very scatter-brained. Stop. Slow down. Think. You may have to leave notes for yourself, or set aside a few minutes morning, midday and night, to go over things in your mind, looking for something you may have missed.
This happens to the best of us. Just not that often. Why? Because when we have an appointment we empathize with the possibility that they could be left hanging if we lose track of time. We feel a moral responsibility not to waste others time, and we take it seriously. So we really have in the back of our minds “check the clock, don’t loose track of time” and if necessary we set an alarm (computer calendar or phone, etc).
Why are your days so busy? Are you trying to cram too many “you” things in? If you can, leave open a little more room for “non you”.
If you are genuinely trying so hard to not be scatter-brained, yet are totally unsuccessful and as self-loathing as you relate, then I suggest you see someone that might be able to diagnose you with, for example, a learning disability, a drug problem, depression, or a personality disorder, which might help open up avenues for treatment.
I am scatter-brained, and I have no problems with tardiness. I write myself notes. Bad “scatter-brained-ness” could be a symptom of a psychosis like schizophrenia or severe depression, a learning disorder like ADHD, a drug problem like opiate addiction, or a cognitive deficit due to brain damage or native low IQ. If none of the above apply (did I miss anything?) I’m going with some kind of personality disorder like narcissism.
I dislike the chronically late and think they have some kind of mental issue and is deficient in empathy. I feel such acts, if it comes from an otherwise healthy adult with no kids, shows a severe lack of respect for other people’s time and is a form of passive-aggresive narcissism. At the very least, if a person’s otherwise kind, they overvalue their own worth compared to other people and take for granted everyone else’s schedule
I have a good friend who is chronically late, I’ll call her Clotho.
Clotho’s someone I’ve known for half my life. I love her as a friend and would never think about dropping her for being a late nacissist. That said, there’s been a couple times when her chronic lateness has caused a rift in our friendship and led to fights. For those who think that lateness is only an issue for the person who’s late and nobody else’s business, there are simply times when one, without the prodding of work and a salary, should be there.
About 8 of us were going to drive up to Vegas for a weekend trip. Of the 8, 2 had to drive to Los Angeles from San Diego on the day we were to leave to meet the other 6. The rest of us were local. Clotho was the only one late. The people who had to first brave the drive from San Diego over a hundred miles away were early, despite traffic. And of the 8 of us, Clotho actually took that day, and the previous day off from work so she could pack. We were to meet at 6pm on Friday, but at 6:30, we found out that Clotho and just started packing. Every single one of us except her had to work that whole week and pack, and we still made it on time. Clotho took 2 days off to get ready and didn’t really begin until 30 mins after she was supposed to be done. The trip was nearly canceled. We certainly had to change our timeline to have a late dinner once we arrived and then go out. By the time Clotho arrived, it was 8:30 and we arrived at Vegas much to late to do anything, we were tired and upset. She almost ruined the whole trip
Clotho shows no regard for other people’s time. The few times where we were able to lie to her successfully about a dinner time and she arrived early, she bitched the whole time. She ranted to those of us who were also early that she hated waiting and she couldn’t stand it. I wanted to slap her and tell her that’s what she forces the rest of us to do every single time. She’s inconsiderate of everyone except herself. Even the friend with 2 kids arrives on time generally, and doesn’t bitch like her time’s worth more than everyone else
Chronically late people are morally inferior. I’m not calling them evil or on par with a murderer, but being late when you don’t have to be, doing it consistently and on purpose, makes you a worse person just as if you lie a lot or like to insult people to get your shits and giggles
Well, yippie for you. For others it isn’t trivial. Vive la différence.
Look, some people are disorganized. Which is what chronic lateness is. If someone is an hour late, yeah, that’s reason to be annoyed. But you come off as the guy with a stop watch who starts raging at 1 minute late. Raging like that does about as much good as that clean freak raging his roommate left a pizza box out or his clothes are on the floor instead of the hamper. And you come off about as much of a obsessive pain in that ass as that neat freak does.
godix – I have already addressed each of your points previously in great detail, including the use of the word “victim”. READ. Similarly with the dis-organizational issues. READ.
One of the points I have also repeatedly addressed is this notion of “raging at 1 minute late.” Here, for example. You are simply wrong, and as far as I can tell, NOT READING PRIOR POSTS.
