You are sounding like my vice-principal when I was back in school.
See, here is something that occurred to me as the thread went on. My idea of horribly late, and other peoples’ ideas of horribly late are different things. If I am supposed to be somewhere at 8:00, I feel like a bit of a tool if I show up at 8:05, while a lot of the examples given are more like half an hour late, which is pretty much not something I ever picture happening short of just total cock-ups (like both of my alarms somehow failing to wake me up or something bizarre like that, or my car battery going dead).
Actually, here’s a question for you Puntuamaniacs (can we make that a word?): Let’s say you have a meeting with someone, but they’re late due to, let’s say car trouble, like the alternator going dead in their car, as a totally-not-drawn-from-something-that-happened-to-my-wife example. Do you hold them responsible for that and consider giving them the third degree, assuming that they normally either are always on time, or only rarely late by any significant degree?
Of course not. I honestly ask you: where in this thread did anyone give such an intimation?
That’s the attitude most of us take I think.
If you know someone well you tend to make such judgements and can also make arrangements that allow for it.
We think such people are worth it.
However, the thread is littered with examples of people where no such mitigation can be made. They are inconsiderate, unapologetic and rude. They see no problem with their behaviour and don’t care how it impacts others.
Some in this thread seem to think that the problem lies with those who are waiting on these idiots. I fail how to see their behaviour can be defended.
Oh, nothing in the thread, sorry if I gave that impression. I was just thinking back to a few months back, the alternator in my wife’s car went bad, so her battery kept getting drained. The first time it happened, she ended up being late for work and her supervisor chewed her out, saying it was her fault her car broke down. “You should have known better than to buy a car with such a problem”. Because, you know, 20 year olds have a lot of experience buying cars and detecting potential problems. :rolleyes: But yeah, until we got her car fixed, I was driving her to work, and since her work started an hour earlier than my work did, I was running hella early for a chance. :eek:
Was basically just polling the audience to see if that kind of reaction was typical or what.
For me, I would not make any judgments about a person’s reasons for being late without drawing from some larger body of evidence. For example, if me and X decide to meet at 18:00 and X shows up at 18:12, then I won’t bat an eye. But if X shows up for our second meeting at 18:20, then it raises a red flag, but I won’t hold it against them. Now, if on our third meeting X shows up at 18:15, I’ll start to think “OK, this could be a statistical fluke, but it’s really starting to appear like X is not being very considerate of my time.” If, on the fourth meeting, X shows up at 18:20 again, I’ll think “Christ, OK, this is inconsiderate. There is very little chance anymore it is a fluke. If she was considerate then on the third and fourth meetings she would have tried extra hard to be on time, since the previous two times she was late.”
Perhaps you should. If you’re worth making a appointment with, you’re arguably worth the (normally quite modest) effort necessary to keep that appointment.
There are genuine emergencies that clearly take priority over social appointments: “Sorry I’m late, but my daughter’s medicine ran out and I had to run down to the drugstore.”
But by no means everything everything family-related qualifies: “Sorry I’m late, but Angela decided she wanted to go to the mall, and of course it made sense to do some grocery shopping at the same time.”
This isn’t only in China! I was invited to a party once that start at “around 8.” I drove there at about 8:20 and no one was there except for the hosts. I often feel awkward being the first person at a party, so I went to a nearby Wal-Mart or something and then went back about 8:45. There was still no one there, but I went in anyway, and the hosts were glad to see me. The party really didn’t get started until about 9.
Another time, same group of friends, same thing. I lived nearby, and I drove by a few times but no one was there, even an hour and 15 minutes after the party was supposed to start. Eventually I decided to stay home and watch a movie. The next day a friend called me asking why I wasn’t at the party and saying how much fun it was. I told her that I drove by a few times and it looked like there was no party there, and she said, oh yeah, I know he said be there at 7, but the party didn’t get started until about 9.
With other friends, though, if a party starts at 8, most people are there by 8:15. I’ll get there at 8:30 and half the food is gone.
The rules–they are confusing!
You can call me a relativist or other bad names, but “decide to meet” can be constituted by different kinds of conversational negotiations in different contexts, and in different ways. You and the other person (and I’m not referring to you in particular, notbatman) may have very different understandings of what makes up a mutual “decision” for a particular time, because you and that other person are communicating with different frameworks.
There actually was a BBC TV show about this–about these differing frameworks-- (called “Crosstalk”), and while that had to do with the different frameworks between men and women, or different races, the frameworks can differ for other reasons, too, in what some might (erroneously) consider to be a homogeneous culture. You can say, “We’re not in China! We’re in Minnesota!!!,” but even within Minnesota people in one conversation can be operating unknowingly with different frameworks.
For example, if one person is talking with a “business” framework, but the other person is talking with a “socializing” framework, the “decision” they come to about when to meet could be a cross-purposes–or at least, mis-aligned.
If it’s a situation where time is important, to avoid being left waiting by a person I don’t know very well, I say: “You’ll be here at 18:00 exactly, correct?” But even then, I realize that if someone is late, well, “fool me once,” etc. I try not to let it become a resentment, though.
guizot – for the sake of discussion, let’s call it a dinner. “Let’s meet at 18:00 at Denny’s? OK.” That’s the context and social contract. There is no need to say “18:00 exactly, correct?” because the context is clear: if one of us is late, then the other is waiting.
That’s clear to you and me, but for some people that could conceivably mean, “early evening–I’ll call you when I’m off work and ready to go there, and give you an exact time then.” That’s damn annoying to people like you and me, but what I’m saying is that sometimes the context for me isn’t the same context for the other person just because I assume it is.
Are the people who just cannot be reasonably on time no matter what suffering from similiarly bad genes that the I can’t loose weight no matter what I do crowd have?
Yeah, there are probably SOME just can not help it types in both groups, but IMO the signifcant majority of em just plaint don’t care enough, try enough, or plain old just don’t give a damn (but want to pretend they do).
When my wife tells me we have a party or gathering to attend at (for example) 7:00, my first question is “7:00 American Time, or Brazilian Time?”
BT being a minimum of AT + one hour. Otherwise yes, you will not only be the first to show up, but there will likely not be any food or drink ready yet.
There’s also a difference depending on whether we’re meeting for dinner at a restaurant, or at home. If my wife says we’re meeting at 18:00 for dinner at Denny’s, she’s usually pretty close to on time. If she says we’re meeting at 18:00 for dinner at home, she may be quite late. But it doesn’t bother me because I’m at home so I’ve got plenty of things to do – read, watch TV, etc.
Basically, she’s learned when her tardiness upsets me, and when it doesn’t, and has modified her behavior accordingly.
Punctuamaniacs really?:rolleyes:
Anyways, punctual people are considerate of others time. Punctual people are smart enough to realize that people can be late due to their car breaking down because obviously that is something out of their control. Being late just because you couldn’t get your ass in gear is not a good excuse.
That is being said about those who chronically keep waiting for chronically late people and chronically get angry about it. Its not about defending the lateness. But if you know that someone is going to be late because they are ALWAYS late, and you continue to make time dependent plans with them and you continue to get pissed EVERY TIME - well there is more than one problem at work in that dynamic. There’s an old expression, ‘fool me once, shame on you: fool me twice, shame on me.’ It often seems as these people just like to be angry! The selfish narcissist versus the raging idiot - maybe they deserve each other!
For the most part, I don’t see that the ‘lateness’ per se is being defended so much as the mental/emotional leap that is being made from ‘you’re late!’ to ‘you are a disgrace to humanity, with no redeeming social value!’ Which may or may not be true, but tardiness alone does not give you enough information to make that judgment.
To me, I could get behind that if I said “Let’s do dinner around 18:00.” Meaning: we haven’t finished planning. But if I say “Let’s do Denny’s at 18:00”, then every detail of the plan has been specified. What if my phone runs out of batteries? What if I turn it off and forget to turn it back on? What if I don’t bring it with me and I’m running errands before meeting you for dinner? What if I need to make plans for before or after dinner and so need to rely on the fact that we are meeting at a specified time? The whole point of making the plan that specific in the first place is so that we don’t have to check-in with each other again before the meeting, and so that we can form other plans around it.
In any case, if that was the implied context to the other person, I would catch on quick. The next time we were to plan a meeting, I would be more specific, like: “I’ve got things to do afterward, so let’s meet right at 18:00.” But in my experience, if you tell that to a “late person” it doesn’t change their behavior very much.
Why would one not get pissed every time? Is it not inconsiderate every time? Is being inconsiderate once not OK, but being inconsiderate twice OK? You are blaming the victim here. Besides, I am not even sure what you think is so dramatic about the victim’s behavior. Take me. I have never yelled at or dressed down or hardly ever even confronted a “late person”. I just get annoyed at them being inconsiderate, and stop associating with them if possible. Sometimes it is not possible or convenient to disassociate from them, but if I can I will. But there is certainly nothing particularly “stick-up-the-ass” about venting on a forum about the fact that such people are inconsiderate – being inconsiderate is wrong, a character fault, and is indicative of, well, a lack of consideration for others, a lack of empathy… of being self-centered.
Your quote here is no doubt taken from someone who went a little overboard. I think most people here aren’t saying “late people” have “no redeeming social value.” But we are saying that narcissism is a very unattractive trait that negatively affects the lives of the people around them.
I have no respect for people who automatically jump to the conclusion that someone else’s failings have anything to do with them. To me, that is the ultimate example of narcissism.
How do you feel about people who talk/use cell phones at movies? Or cut in line ahead of you? Or light up a cigarette in an enclosed area? Or have loud house parties late into the night? Or bring 60 items to the 12 items or less checkout line?
I think your concept of narcissism needs some serious review.