The psychology of punctual people vs late people according to lisalan

[iamnotbatman]

@godix

For the most part, that is the difference. In neither case is the other person doing it to annoy it. In many cases, they don’t even know it annoys you. Instead, you interpret it as annoying. It’s YOUR issue with how you view it, not the other persons issue with how they intend it.

But you understand that in one case you are 1) effectively lying to another person, and 2) making them have to guess as to when you are going to arrive?

@godix

Perhaps it’s a difference in slang, but I always thought standing someone up was if you don’t show up at all.

For most people, not showing up until an hour after an appointment is effectively standing them up. If I am meeting a date for dinner at a restaurant, for example, I’m going to leave after 30-40 minutes, because I have other things to do besides wait at a table, and because I am hungry. When that happens, it is effectively being stood up. Your position is that I should wait indefinitely? And that being annoyed is MY issue?

@godix

The thing is, if you know that person is always late then you knew you didn’t have to show up on time either. You could have used that time with children or earning extra money. Instead you choose to show up somewhere when you KNEW the other person wouldn’t be there. Again, your issue, not theirs.

So again, you are saying it’s OK to lie to people. You are also saying that I am expected to have to guess as to when the late person will show up. You are putting that responsibility on my shoulders? That is fair?

[Grapefruit]

@iamnotbatman

I appreciate how you have “expanded your horizons and learned to relax and not get worked up” about these things. This is clearly apparent.

“Not get worked up” was in reference to being worked up about people being late. Then again, I’m not worked up about this either. I’m offering rebuttals to your comments. If you want to see me worked up, go to the Workplace Griping thread in the Pit. What I posted just before christmas break… woweee… that stuff, I was worked up about.

You know, I think I could tell, the moment you started using all caps and LOL and PWND, around the same time you kindly offered to help clarify things for me given my problematic mental capacity. That was when it first became clear to me that you had really, as you said, had “grown up”, and risen above the fray.

Hey, thanks for twisting my words and applying incorrect sentiments. If picking this out proves that my opinions are wrong, OKAY! Keep reiterating that late people are inconsiderate with no backing nor response to my questions, but rather ad hominem to the opposing views, and you got yourself a valid conclusion.

And of course, part of getting to know people is noticing how considerate they are of other people. If they are repeatedly inconsiderate of other people, it’s a pretty big minus in the budding friendship department.

And like I said, if that’s the case, so be it. Just remember not everyone has their own reasons, and not all of it boils down to "inconsideration’.

Funny how I literally spelled out the inconsistency and you still didn’t get it.

Okay, pretend for a second that I’m stupid like a fifth grader. Care to explain, what you meant? Because two half sentences doesn’t spell out anything for me.

So, the “latecomers’ motivations” you provided were my own, which were meant specifically to exemplify the opposite of your point. OK… let’s go with those.

Here are those examples of “latecomers’ motivations”, which you assert, and I quote, are not “OMG SO SELFISH”:

*“We need to leave in 5 minutes.”
“Nah, I would rather spend 10 minutes reading and replying on SDMB.”

“It is a 5 minute walk to get there, so we should be on time.”
“Ohhh, look at that purse in the window! I have to get it.”

“Set your alarm for 7am”
“Nah, I would rather sleep until the last possible minute and risk being late.”

“We have to go dear, don’t answer the phone”
[Picks up phone anyways] “Oh hi Bill, long time no hear!”
[she whispers] “Tell him you’ll call him back later this evening”
[But he keeps talking for 15 minutes]*

In all cases, of course, selfishness at the expense of others is what is being displayed. It is selfish, for example, to buy a purse when you know that it will make you late. You could buy the purse after your appointment, or some other time.

I hate to be a mimicking monkey, especially to mimic you, but… this does not make any sense… what, specifically, are you trying to refute here?

You said: I point you to my first post where I describe my mother’s inability to get organized. Believe it or not, although the result is the same, the motivation is not as you point out that she lacks consideration.

I said: And again, I don’t think anyone here is calling your mother inconsiderate. We simply have never met her.

You said: Oh hell, you reiterate my points so well, why am I even posting?

Did I now?

You don’t know my mother. You don’t know 99.9% of the population’s motivation. You can’t cast the net of “inconsideration” when you’ve never met them. That is my point.

If someone close to you is inconsiderate, then defensively making excuses for their behavior is a form of denial. Being inconsiderate is not a positive trait. Nonetheless, some people, as you conveniently wrote in description of yourself “learned a few methods of coping.” Fair enough. No one is perfect, and sometimes you have to look past negative qualities in order to get some jollies. I understand that. But if you are intellectually honest, and not in denial, then you will be able to admit that being chronically inconsiderate is a negative quality, and in this context probably indicative of narcissism (for the other options see my first post in this thread, here).

Oh, I finally see where this is breaking down. You are arguing with so many words that “chronic lateness = inconsideration”, I am saying “not necessarily, here are some examples and ways to prevent yourself from being driven insane about other people’s habits”, and you respond with “Do you not see that chronic lateness = inconsideration???”

Well, okay, if you refuse to budge on your opinion that lateness boils down inconsideration, nothing else, live your life with those thoughts. I, on the other hand, prefer to get to know individuals before assigning specific motivations.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@LilyoftheField

I don’t realize anything of the sort since that’s not what you said. What you said is, if I’m a chronically late person than I am morally inferior to you. That IS what you said, right?

Yes, if we were identical in all other respects but you were chronically late and had a negative effect on other people, I would consider you morally inferior to me.

that’s what I mean by

‘all other personality traits being the same’

But of course we don’t live in such a world so a person is always the sum of their pluses and minuses.

I’m not following your reasoning here. That you can assume that since I am usually late, then I must therefore be thoughtless and inconsiderate in all other areas of my life as well? Is that what you’re saying? And therefore the converse would be equally true - since you are punctual and reliable, that means that you are always thoughtful and considerate in all other areas of your life?

Enlighten me.

I have no idea what you do in other aspects of your life but in the bit that interacts with me I would you have you tagged as thoughtless and inconsiderate. When you do eventually turn up you could bring me a powerpoint highlighting your redeeming qualities if you like.
And no, I can be thoughtless and inconsiderate in myriad ways. However, I do try to minimise this and it upsets me when I behave like that because it has real effects on other people’s lives.
My beef is with those who seem to neither realise nor care.

[iamnotbatman]

Grapefruit, if you have an issue with whether or not late people are inconsiderate, try responding to the post from much earlier in the thread that I linked to (perhaps you jumped in a little late?):

(contents dumped):

@iamnotbatman

When I am running late I feel bad. I have empathy for the person who waiting for me. I feel guilty for wasting someone’s time and self-conscious about putting myself in a position of being literally waited-on like some silver-spooned aristocrat. I therefore try to be on time. Given that I’m not a stupid person, it is generally not difficult to accomplish this modest goal. I can only assume that those who are chronically late (without a good excuse like poo blowouts) are either 1) stupid, 2) narcissistic, or 3) sociopaths.

My assumption is that most who give excuses that equate to “I’m not good with time management” are essentially admitting that they are narcissistic.

ETA: there is a lot that can be expanded on here, and we might be careful about understanding what we mean by “good excuses”, but I think this is a good starting point for a rebuttal (please no LOLs or PWNDs this time)

[Beware_of_Doug]

The problem, or part of it, may have to do with people’s lack of “practical wisdom” - sometimes called emotional intelligence, or the ability to tell what’s best in a given situation (a quality the linked author feels is in short supply).

Or perhaps - on the punctual person’s side at least - an unwillingness to apply such reasoning, leading to “rules are rules” thinking.

[iamnotbatman]

@Beware_of_Doug

The problem, or part of it, may have to do with people’s lack of “practical wisdom” - sometimes called emotional intelligence, or the ability to tell what’s best in a given situation (a quality the linked author feels is in short supply).

Or perhaps - on the punctual person’s side at least - an unwillingness to apply such reasoning, leading to “rules are rules” thinking.

This is spurious, apologist BS. “Rules are rules” thinking? Right, you are the one who wrote this post too. You’re “All About You” guy. My response to that is similar to my response to this:

“Can I have your wallet?”
“No, it’s mine!”
“Whoa man, that’s ‘rules are rules’ thinking right there”

You realize, btw, that narcissism is a textbook example of a problem with emotional intelligence? Wanting to be on time is empathetic, empathy being a component of emotional intelligence distinctly lacking in those who are unconcerned by their lateness.

[Xema]

@godix

In many cases, they don’t even know it annoys you. Instead, you interpret it as annoying.

I think this has to be thoroughly wrong. Claiming not to know that people find it annoying to be kept waiting is like claiming to be surprised that people don’t like you poking them in the eye, or taking money out of their wallet, or spitting into their beer, or setting off a firecracker behind their head, or peeing in their living room, or dragging your key along the side of their new car. You can’t remotely be considered an adult without knowing these things (indeed, it’s a pitiful thing if a 10-year-old hasn’t grasped these concepts).

It would be a marginally tenable argument if the chronically late were indifferent to lateness in others. But (as noted upthread) I’ve never observed this, and indeed the opposite seems nearer the truth.

[Raguleader]

@iamnotbatman

This is spurious, apologist BS. “Rules are rules” thinking? Right, you are the one who wrote this post too. You’re “All About You” guy. My response to that is similar to my response to this:

“Can I have your wallet?”
“No, it’s mine!”
“Whoa man, that’s ‘rules are rules’ thinking right there”

You realize, btw, that narcissism is a textbook example of a problem with emotional intelligence? Wanting to be on time is empathetic, empathy being a component of emotional intelligence distinctly lacking in those who are unconcerned by their lateness.

Dude, take ten slow, deep breaths, do some pushups, whatever, calm down man, the vitriol’s not needed and it’s not helping.

[suranyi]

@Novelty_Bobble

But of course we don’t live in such a world so a person is always the sum of their pluses and minuses.

Precisely, so what the heck is all the arguing about?

I’m generally very punctual, so I tolerate chronic lateness only from those whose other qualities make waiting for them worthwhile.

There are not many of them, but one of them happens to be my wife. We do have an agreement, however. If it’s really imporant for her to be on time, for example we have a bus or plane to catch, then she is on time. But to be honest, that situation isn’t all that common. And if it’s not, then I don’t get annoyed with her when she shows up a half hour late. Our marriage works.

[Beware_of_Doug]

@iamnotbatman

This is spurious, apologist BS. “Rules are rules” thinking? Right, you are the one who wrote this post too. You’re “All About You” guy. My response to that is similar to my response to this:

“Can I have your wallet?”
“No, it’s mine!”
“Whoa man, that’s ‘rules are rules’ thinking right there”

You realize, btw, that narcissism is a textbook example of a problem with emotional intelligence? Wanting to be on time is empathetic, empathy being a component of emotional intelligence distinctly lacking in those who are unconcerned by their lateness.

I’m thinking I don’t wanna have anything more to do with you. If you’re thinking the same thing, hey! meeting of the minds. Ta ta, notbatman.

[VinylTurnip]

Aw, and I really felt we were close to a breakthrough!

[Hello_Again]

Does anyone remember the name of that guy who declared that all scheduling was oppression, and was opposed to the idea of units of time, in the last thread along these line? That was wacky.

[Shagnasty]

This is an honest question and I expect an honest answer. To those of you who don’t think specific times are important, why don’t you just tell that to people up front if you are truly honest and don’t mean to be passive aggressive?

If someone asks you to meet them at a restaurant at 6 pm, why don’t you tell them you don’t like being a slave to a clock and you don’t like committing to a certain time? If you could go so far as giving a range of times that you might show, how do you think that would work and would you feel bad if you missed that range completely?

[Zebra]

When it is something that isn’t necessary to be specific about the time, I will say around 6. Note the use of around. I may say something I’ll be there between 6 and 6:30. Or I’ll be there by 6:30.

I agree that if someone says “I’ll meet you at 4” then they should be there at 4. If it isn’t something that is crucial to the continued existence of the human race, the success of the company, or getting to an event with a specific start time, i.e. a wedding or a movie, then a good 10 minute leeway is automatic given.

[iamnotbatman]

@Raguleader

Dude, take ten slow, deep breaths, do some pushups, whatever, calm down man, the vitriol’s not needed and it’s not helping.

His two posts (that I’ve noticed) here are both extremely spurious. Obviously so. I checked his profile because I was worried he was a troll, and what perhaps rankled me the post is that on his profile it says he is an MA candidate in rhetoric. And that is exactly what his posts are. If he would like to respond to my response’s content, where I crisply describe why this is so, then that would be great. I very much doubt he ever will.

[iamnotbatman]

@Zebra

When it is something that isn’t necessary to be specific about the time, I will say around 6. Note the use of around. I may say something I’ll be there between 6 and 6:30. Or I’ll be there by 6:30.

I agree that if someone says “I’ll meet you at 4” then they should be there at 4. If it isn’t something that is crucial to the continued existence of the human race, the success of the company, or getting to an event with a specific start time, i.e. a wedding or a movie, then a good 10 minute leeway is automatic given.

This sounds totally reasonable.

[SurrenderDorothy]

My ex best friend is chronically late and there are a few things I’ve noticed about her.

first of all, she’s incredibly selfish in all aspects of her life. She is the sort of person who can be entirely cognizant of how her behavior will hurt someone else and still do it if she wants to. She’s spoiled and entitled- a sheltered only child. I don’t think her lateness is a matter of considering other people’s feelings and time and deciding that they don’t matter, though. It’s just that she forgets other people exist at all. Inconsiderate doesn’t necessarily mean thinking mean thoughts- it’s not like she nastily plots to be late- it’s just that it doesn’t enter her mind. She doesn’t consider it. Inconsiderate.

Second of all, she’s someone who has almost no sense of responsibility for the consequences of her actions. She expects the world to bend to accommodate her and if it doesn’t, she’ll throw a fit about how mean and nasty everyone was to her. For example, we once decided to go ice skating. There’s a two-hour free skate at the skating rink. She was my ride, so I had to wait for her ass. She futzed and puttered and played on the computer and took forever to get ready and said, “meh, we have plenty of time” every time I tried to push her and then she wanted to eat and then she wanted to stop for gum and so forth. We finally got there about ten minutes before free skate closed and she cried because she didn’t get to skate and whined all the way home about those assholes at the skating rink and how she didn’t want to go back there because those people were mean.

Third of all, it doesn’t bother her to be late, so she doesn’t understand why it bothers anyone else. I really prefer not to be late, even regardless of how it affects other people. It makes me anxious and self-conscious and it makes me feel disorganized and that part is just a personality thing- it’s just something I’m personally kind of uptight about. It’s like the way I can’t stand mess and she doesn’t mind it.

A big part of my punctuality is that I do take other people into consideration. I think about people’s plans and their time and things that are important to them and so on. It’s the main thing on my mind when I decide when to start getting ready/leave. But another big part of it really is just my own personality.

[Crowbar_of_Irony_3]

Rather late to this party. Please don’t fry me.

Background: I have punctualness drilled into me during my school days. My mother was often late, and up to a certain time in primary school (or what you call grade school here) I relied on her to wake me up.

So it’s a case of the blind leading the blind here. I got ridiculed by teachers (see my location in my profile in case you need context) so much so that I decide to wake up by myself, make my own breakfast and haul my ass to school.

I never have been late for school since then (till my undergraduate days).

…

My threshold for late coming is 30 minutes; I will feel really bad if I am more than 30 minutes late, and quite upset if I am stood up for 30 minutes, barring good excuses. (Playing Red Alert 3 and being so engrossed that you have forgot the time is stretching it though. Yes one of my friends frequently state that as a reason)

However, throughout life, I realize that people are not going to agree with my point of view, and I should be less critical. I am not on time all the while, and usually I am late by 5 to 15 minutes. So I am not so upset with people who are slightly late. As I live in an urban area, and the public transport can be quite atrocious at times, I learn to let go about late-coming.

I mean, I can fault someone for being inconsiderate, but I can’t fault him/her for not being omniscient.

There are those, however, who are late because they really chose to. I have a friend I can count on him being late for all appointments. However, I want to keep this in perspective. I won’t know his thinking process, or what his values judgement. So I just learn to say, “Whatever”.

Lastly, I don’t think I think of myself as being so important that my friends must do whatever they can to keep the appointment. Some reasons I got from my friends, especially those who do drive, are that they need to run errands or pick some family member up. I don’t think they will take it nicely if I pound them for being late because family or something more important than me crops up.

Of course, IF the event is definitely more important than a single errand, say boarding a flight or something which will keep other people waiting*, then I be pissed if a simple errand keeps you late.

Is it a matter of integrity? It is for me, but I don’t expect others to share the same view. Maybe different families has different views on time and punctuality and which is why everyone has different views.

Right now, when I say “Let’s meet at 1pm”, I mean “I will make an effort to be there at 1pm” and this is what I expect of the others.

*Here’s something that I bet will get some people here frothing at the teeth. Chinese wedding dinners. Please be there at 7pm. If you reach the venue by 7pm be prepared to be bored of your tears because it won’t start till 9pm. Chinese are famous for being late to wedding dinners; it is the norm. The hosts have expected their guests to be late. The guests know it is all right to be late. And the outcome is…?

[Crowbar_of_Irony_3]

@Shagnasty

This is an honest question and I expect an honest answer. To those of you who don’t think specific times are important, why don’t you just tell that to people up front if you are truly honest and don’t mean to be passive aggressive?

If someone asks you to meet them at a restaurant at 6 pm, why don’t you tell them you don’t like being a slave to a clock and you don’t like committing to a certain time? If you could go so far as giving a range of times that you might show, how do you think that would work and would you feel bad if you missed that range completely?

This is what I do with a tardy friend of mine. And I will only take time to meet him if I am not in a hurry. For the record, he thinks specific times are not important because when we can meet is dependent on when he can finish writing his school papers.

Hence I will suggest a time, say, 8:00pm. He might say it’s too early. I propose 8.30pm and he says it will be better for him. I have nothing on from 8.30pm and just like to stroll about the mall. So I will agree to that and expect him to come at 9.

He would come at 8.45pm thereabout and will be all apologies.

There’s no way I will rely on him to come on a certain timing.

[needscoffee]

The people on this thread who are trying to defend themselves for being late are a revelation to me. They simply don’t care who is left waiting in a restaurant for 30 minutes, and assign the blame to the other person, saying the other person should know better by now. They actually have blamed the “time-nazis” for making them behave this way. They have completely confirmed my view that they are inconsiderate and selfish. The more they defend their position, the more jerkish they sound. Yes, there are some people who truly can’t navigate the space-time continuum as well as the rest of us, but you guys aren’t them. Yours is a conscious decision to not care about wasting other peoples’ time, to put yourself above all others.