The Queer Soup Thread (An attempt to merge some of the queer threads together)

Okay, I’m not a card-carrying member of the “homosexuality is a choice” school, but I do not believe it can be ruled out in an honest manner. For starters, its opponents tend to rely a great deal on anecdotal “evidence” - the very kind of evidence that would be ruled out in other fields of study.

Each time one avenue (eg genetic determination) is closed, folk tweak their diagnosis/conclusions, thus “biological” with its shadowy, and little tested (untestable?) uterine influences.

“Control”, “whim”, “conscious”, “decisions” mingle neatly with “bell curves” (inverted or otherwise) and “toolsets”, but this juxtaposition of the not-scientific with the apparently-scientific does not mask the fact that it’s essentially all guesswork.

Ooh, ooh! I want to do promiscuity!

I speak as a member of the Loyal Gay Opposition (that is, I’m gay but quite conservative and have chosen chastity for religious reasons at this moment).

First, men are in general more promiscuous than women. So, this isn’t a gay issue as much as it is a male issue. This is observable even among straight men. The reason why straight men cannot afford to be as promiscuous is because women do not tolerate it as much. You have 1 promiscuous + 1 non-promiscuous = tempered promiscuity. But 1 promiscuity + 1 promiscuity = more promiscuity! As such, it is much more visible amongst gay men. I would venture to guess that if women were as promiscuous as men, sexual relations amongst gay men would look no different than sexual relations between straight men and straight women.

My theory is that evolutionarily men are wired to spread their seed whereas women are wired to nurture and care for their young. Promiscuity is not conducive to rearing and caring for young. Settling down means a stable environment for the young, which is why women are geared towards settling down, and men, eventually, desire it too.

From my conversations with various gay men, it becomes clear, as Priam said, that even the promiscuous are looking for love, looking for some commitment, and looking some sort of settling down.

And not all gay men are promiscuous. I know a few gay men who are very, very conscious about whom they sleep with. And I know a few gay men who are total whores. (I’m a total whore in that I’m attracted to and flirt with men with extremely ease; I’m an insufferable prude in that I refuse to get involved with any man. For me, it’s all look, no play.)

Another matter to consider is peer pressure. Some gay men are concerned that young gay men, when they come out, see only one model of gay men to emulate - the club-and-bar-hopping, one-night-standing model-looks-and-build mold that many associate with gay men. What these young men - and, indeed, others - do not see is the large number of gay men who lead relatively conservative and normal lives. It is not a requirement of being gay to get laid at least once a week, dance, do E, etc.

Check out this gay comic: Adam and Andy. I’ve spoken with the author numerous times. He’s a real great guy. Been with the same guy for more than a decade (I believe).

I remember a magazine I used to subscribe to: HERO, the magazine for men interested in issues other than sex and the clone-look. One of their slogans was: “Real men cuddle.” It was meant to be an alternative to the generic gay magazines out there which seem to pander to whole youth-and-sex crowd. (By “youth,” I mean young-looking, going for twinks, and the like, not pedophilia or ephebophilia.)

Gay people are very, very, very diverse.

WRS - I’m quite comfortable in my simultaneous gayness and prudishness, thankyouvermuch.

WRS, I think there’s a bit more to it than men are more promiscuous than women, and gay men are more promiscuous than straight men, ceteris paribus, because and only because they have the opportunity.

But then that’s just my intuition - combined with my experience, as a relatively non-promiscuous straight bloke, my observation of the gay people I know, and my reading, discussion and reflection on the issues.

As for the reason for the greater promiscuity among (young) gay men, are you suggesting that selfishness is right up there? They can, so they do.

Die Vorschau ist meine Freundin. Click here for Adam and Andy.

One thing I should mention to my straight friends: gayness is not a choice. I don’t know what causes it or makes it come to be, but it is not a conscious choice. (Acting on one’s gayness is another issue, which I won’t get into.) People knew I was gay before I even knew.

Anecdote: when I was in, um, middle school (this wasn’t an American school or in the American system), two (straight) friends came up to me and said, “You know, you may want to be careful. People are calling you a ‘homo.’” I responded, “Well, of course. We’re all homos. Homo sapiens.” They rolled their eyes and walked off, and it wasn’t until a few years later that I realized why they looked at me like I was a hopeless geek.

How did I find out my attraction was homosexual? I did much reading in the better-equipped library in the American high school I began attending, reading about maturity, sexuality, etc. I read many, many, many books on gayness to investigate this phenomenon. So it’s after a study of the phenomenon and my own nature and being that I came to the conclusion that I was/am gay. I never sat down and said, “You know, it’d be nice to do men instead of women.” (For the record, I lost my virginity to my wife (now my ex-wife). I have never had full-blown sex (no pun intended) with men; I have only “fooled around” with a few gay friends while in college. I got married for religious/cultural reasons, and my sexual orientation is one of many reasons the marriage did not work out.)

WRS - OMG. Is this my coming-out-to-SDMB post? Couldn’t be in a better place!

Of course it’s about selfishness. Everything everyone does is for selfish reasons. Promiscuity is for selfish reasons. Settling down is for selfish reasons. Having kids is selfish. Raising kids is selfish. Drinking water is selfish. Admiring elephants is selfish. And so on. Selfishness or self-centeredness is very, very, very strong. Just my opinion, though.

Young gay men may not know better. They may think: “This is what gay people do.” This is the theory that some gay people, who’re worried about young gay men, have. They want young gay men to realize that there’s more to being involved with other gay men than sleeping with them. Talking with them, campaigning with them, going to book clubs, artistic productions, etc., etc., etc., without necessarily having sex. You can have a gay old time without necessarily having sex.

I don’t think gay men are more promiscuous than straight men. I just think they seem that way because they have the opportunity to do so. Perception versus reality. Gay men and straight men are just as promiscuous. Gay men and straight men are just as relationship-oriented.

Nonetheless, there’s a great number of gay men who focus more on that inner longing for love and choose not to pander to their lust’s every desire. One of my best friends has not slept with a guy for years. Why? Because he’s waiting to find a boyfriend before he has sex. Another friend practically slept with a different man every night. Same phenomenon (of sexuality - homosexuality), different expressions.

This is all according to my observations and experiences, so I could be totally wrong.

WRS

“Talking with them, campaigning with them, going to book clubs, artistic productions…”

Another (mis)perception about homosexuality (both men and women) is that it’s largely middle-class. (Which will be resisted as it puts a spanner in the can’t be a choice argument - or, at least, the biological (knows no boundaries) argument).)

Another one is that gay folk are disproportionately arty in relation to the total population. (Or is this perception believed to be true?)

So, when you write about these arty middle class pursuits, are you parodying the stereotype or affirming it?

Gay culture and opportunities to do stuff with gay people tend to be most developed in cities and in places where gay people are tolerated. Example: gay men in Pakistan, when they get together, tend to have sex. Not many are as interested in having non-sexual fun with other gay men. I have a whole theory on the development of gay culture or, rather, the development of activities amongst gay men.

As for artsy stuff, those were just suggestions. Going to rodeos, playing chess or checkers, playing any of many sports (football, softball, tennis, basketball, etc.) with gay teams, and other activities are also possible. I only used activities the people I know well are interested in. But the point is not they they must do artsy stuff but that they can do something, anything, without involving sex or stuff.

Gay men - because homosexuality’s a natural phenomenon and not dependent on socioeconomic status, culture, race, creed, color, reading interests, or shoe size - can be found anywhere and everywhere. There are gay cowboys, gay millionaires, gay homeless people, gay waiters/students/artists/authors/mechanics/technicians/teachers/[insert any vocation]. There are gay men in every country, every social level, every vocation (except maybe straight pornography), every religion, every political ideology.

Most gay people I have known have also been quite artistically talented. I don’t know how widespread artistic talents and interests run among gay men - I have no talents and only cursory interest, for what it’s worth. But if I don’t mind going to artistic events for entertainment. Gay men are rumored to be legion in the art world, but since I am not so involved therein, I cannot say how true this is. (Of course, then the question comes to my mind: if gay men are so associated with the arts, why are all the famous actors mostly straight?)

WRS - I’m going to shut up now. My foot’s far enough up my mouth now.

This is just my WAG, but I’d say that TRADITIONALLY, the artistic community as a whole has always been more accepting of gays. And my corollary WAG is that this is because artists in general are often a bubble off-center themselves, and so less inclined to pick on someone else for being “different.”

And I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that ALL the famous actors are mostly straight, though I am REALLY against the notion of people outing anyone who does not choose to be out.

The boys.

Well, them and the amazing cultural, philosophical, political, emotional, and personal joys that it opened the door to for me. There are a metric shit-ton of things that I love dearly that being gay and a part of gay culture are directly responsible for my having discovered.

[quote]
Simply put, for homosexual men, is this something that everyone does? Is it definitive of what homosexual sex is?[/qupte]

No, and no. Although a thundering slut (when I can get it), I only have anal sex with my boyfriend (when I have one), and even then very rarely, for considerations of safety, aesthetics, pleasure (there are a lot of things I like as much or more) and ability (you have to know your way around me pretty damn well to be able to get me relaxed enough).

As for the second question, I don’t feel “more gay” when I’m having or fantasizing about anal sex. If he’s a guy, that’s quite gay enough for me.

As always, don’t forget the distinction between being gay or bi, and being out. All your data is going to be skewed by the fact that the only people in your sample group are those who are able to tell people (in some cases, repeatedly, and unsolicited) that they’re gay.

So is it that being in a middle-class, educated, artistic environment makes people gay, or is it just that it makes them comfortable enough to be out with it? I dunno, but I don’t think it necessarily messes up the “can’t be a choice” argument. (Of course it doesn’t support it, either. I’m not arguing or resisting it one way or the other.) I know I can think of a million things that could’ve been different and would’ve kept me in the closet forever.

Top. Or somewhat more strongly, Total Top.

I don’t wish to be combatative, roger, but you seem to be arguing as much from intuition and anecdote as the rest of us. Why is it somehow allowable for you but not for us? I will admit you’re right when you say that we only have the word of people to go by, but such is the truth with most psychological studies conducted. This is why large, random samples are so important for the locating of trends. Some people are going to lie or simply fudge things a bit, so you need a broad enough base and decent enough study controls to put these people in a negligible minority. Studies of that depth have been done and should not be discounted just because you have an intuition the other way.

I don’t wish to hijack my own thread, so just consider that some food for thought.

Most of the lesbians I know come from lower income brackets. One lived in a trailer outside Austin, TX for most of her life. I also know through a youth group I used to participate in many folks of various ethnic backgrounds who spanned from welfare recipients to about by own range (upper middle class).

  • My question for the GAy dopers, is what for you is the best thing about being gay?*

Shallow as it may seem, the first (second and third) things that came to mind for me was “women are so soft! Really soft. Soft and pretty!” lol

PLus, as lesbians we get to make up our own relationship rules, rather than falling into typical male/female patterns. :wink:

I agree that women’s sexuality is probably more fluid, in general. BUt I also think that most of those who appear to “switch sides” (Anne Heche & co) are probably bi to some extent.

Also, no being gay isn’t (generally) a choice. But if it were I’d choose it again in a millisecond! (and since I am, personally, at least a little bit bisexual, partnering a woman was a choice, in a way, for me)

I guess this is as good a thread as any to ask this.

First off, let me make sure that I have the terms right. A transgendered person is someone who wants to live as the opposite gender, but may or may not want SRS. A transsexual person is someone who wants SRS.

Are there transsexual people who, post-op, want to live as their pre-op physical sex? Or is that unheard of?

This is a question about/for transexual/gendered people that are either post-op, or living full time as the opposite gender. Like others, I’m not positive on the terms, so if something comes out wrong, it’s not intentional. How do you look at with your awards that have your non-preferred name, or pictures of you looking like the wrong sex/gender? I ask this because I once saw a documentary on this subject where a soon to be post-op woman referred to the man in the pictures as her evil twin. She would also say things like “these are Bill’s medals” or Bill did this or that. Is it common for people to look at their pre-op and post-op selves as two separate people?

Since I’m not transsexual, I’ll stick with just definition stuff. Transgender is an umbrella term that can cover a lot of categories (including transsexual). It can be boiled down to mean those who do not conform to gender “norms”. This can include transvestites, drag kings/queens, genderqueer, androgynous… the list is actually quite wide indeed.

Transsexuals are those whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics (their body’s sex) do not match the sex hardwired into their brains. This is probably a simplistic definition and I do hope one of our incredibly gracious transsexual folk will give a better one, but its the best I could put together. Transsexuals do not all want to undergo SRS. Some can’t afford it. Some don’t feel the risk of the procedure matches up with their need. Some simply dress and present themselves full-time as members of the appropriate sex. Some go halfway (hormones, maybe breast removal in the case of Female-to-Male) and are content enough to stop. Some do go all the way and complete the entire SRS procedure. It varies from person to person.

It is quite common for heterosexual men o fantasize about (often very unrealistic) lesbian sex and lesbian sexuality. Is it at all common for heterosexual women to fantasize about homosexual male sex and sexuality? Do homosexuals of either sex fantasize about sex with heterosexuals of the same sex, and do you fantasize about being your own sex with a same sex heterosexual or being of the opposite sex with a heterosexual of your same (actual) sex.
More simply put, what (not homosexual with homosexual) sexual fantasies are common for homosexuals? Is there anything as commonly found as the heterosexual fantasies about lesbian sex?

You mean people who change their mind afterward? These are not transsexuals, and should have been screened out before surgery. A few slip through, unfortunately.

I say, “Jeez, I was thin, and the clothes back then were awful!”

Not really. I mean people who know that their physical sex is wrong, but even post-op feel more comfortable living as that gender rather than the one that matches up with their correct sex.

As an example, think of a post-op mtf transsexual who dresses as a man, engages in typically masculine activities, and has masculine personality traits. Are they out there?

If you mean butch MTFs or FTMs who are and live as total sissies, I do know a handful yes.