To the surprise of absolutely no one.
I’ve seen you ask for cites. I can’t think of a single time you’ve done it when you weren’t asking for a cite for something blindingly obvious, or based on you utterly failing to understand the point being argued.
In other word, people don’t provide cites to you, because they have an entirely rational, learned disrespect for your reasoning abilities and general intellectual honesty.
OK, this is where I’m at. People routinely post non-factual information all over this board, but in my opinion it shouldn’t be allowed in GD/PE/GQ. I realize that you don’t moderate those forums, and the Pit is different. But why do those idiots do it in the first place?
Ed’s sock reveals itself.
But that’s the point: they don’t. You think that they do, because you’re too dim to understand the difference. People ignore you when you ask for cites, because trying to engage you in any sort of debate is manifestly a waste of time - you do not have the mental capacity to engage in conversation at an adult level.
Fuck off, you dip shit. There’s no “my side” to this. I’m not tribal. I despise the democratic party. I long for a day that I never have to vote for them again because they’re a bunch of oligarch supporting pieces of shit that only serve to exist as pertual losers, the Washington Generals to the Republicans Harlem Globetrotters.
I am not incapable of nuance. I have spent a great deal of my life engaging in good faith debate with people who disagree entirely with me and I am fully capable of engaging with them with a sense of intellectual charity and genuine open mind.
You are detached from reality. You think this is about abortion. You think this is 1987 or some shit. Being a republican in 2021 is not about some hypothetical good-faith position on abortion. It’s about being part of the cult. It’s about worshipping Trump as the God-emporer. If he tells you that he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history, you need to believe it. When he tells you the election was stolen, you need to believe it. When he tells you that what your eyes are seeing and your ears are hearing is not what’s really happening, and you can only believe him, you need to believe it.
The Republican party is the party of qanon, not principled conservatism. The argument you’re making today is an argument someone could’ve made 20 or 30 years ago. “Both sides are people who want what’s best but disagree how” was true at some point in time.
That was long before the time where qanon conspiracy theories are essentially the official platform of the party today. They are unhinged, they are anti-democratic, they exist only to hate people who they view as outside of their tribe. Their only motivation is spite.
The fact that you can’t see this and you’re lecturing me like I don’t understand that people can disagree with me without being evil or detached form reality means that you have completely lost touch with reality. You fail to acknowledge what the Republican party has become today.
We’re not talking about rent control. We’re not talking about abortion. We’re talking about whether Global Warming is real. Whether Covid is a massive worldwide hoax. Whether the last election was real. We’re arguing whether reality is real and you seem to be completely unable to understand the massive shift that has happened in recent years.
Do you even understand what the fuck it is that republicans are talking about these days? How can you have your head so far up your ass that you have no idea what the actual fucking discussion and agenda is within the party? They’re not having debates about abortion, they’re having debates about whether they should openly embrace a made up qanon reality… and the qanon side is winning.
You’re the fucking lazy one, because you don’t ever have to change your ideas to fit the facts. If the Republicans make their official logo the swastika next year and advocate a policy of killing anyone that isn’t white, you’ll still be on here saying “now now guys, your opponents aren’t evil, you’re just exaggerating because your mind is too small to understand that just because someone disagree with you doesn’t mean you’re evil”
I’m sure you were making these exact same arguments 5 or 10 years ago. If the absolute deliberate descent into batshit cult status for the Republican party didn’t change your mind about them, what would? Nothing. That’s why you’re detached from reality. That’s why you’re dogmatic. You just assume that anyone declaring the other side evil must be simple minded, and you are unable to actually observe the real world and conclude, “oh, wait, holy shit, there’s some crazy shit going down right now. Things are outside the norm right now. Maybe my old lectures about both sides being good faith participants with different opinions doesn’t apply in the current circumstances.” You’re giving us the same lecture you were probably giving people 20 years ago, totally oblivious to how reality has changed.
Hmm. Will you rethink your claims if you meet a Republican in 2021 who says, “you know, Trump said he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history, and, well, I didn’t believe him; still don’t. Oh, sure, I’m aware that SenorBeef said that I need to believe it; but what is that to me?”
No. It doesn’t require every single person in the republican party to all hold the exact same position for my point to be valid.
Does this hypothetical person of yours believe that COVID is real? Is global warming real? Did Trump secretly win the 2020 election? Are democrats secret blood-harvesting pedophiles with secret child rings to rape/take the blood from children?
If not, do they realize that the people who do advocate for that in their party are getting the spotlight, are tacitly endorsed, and not rebuked?
Do they realize that their party either actively aided, stood by, and/or refused to punish an attempt at violent insurrection of the United States?
If they do, why are they still a Republican? If they realize that their party has gone insane, and vote for them anyway, what the fuck is their problem?
You stated: “Being a republican in 2021 is not about some hypothetical good-faith position on abortion. It’s about being part of the cult. It’s about worshipping Trump as the God-emporer. If he tells you that he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history, you need to believe it.”
If what you posted isn’t so — if you grant that being a Republican in 2021 doesn’t mean needing to believe that — then I’m all set.
This doesn’t seem too promising, because I of course know I’m merely telling the truth about someone I happen to know, and you — well, don’t. But, for what it’s worth: the guy in question does believe COVID is real, and doesn’t think Trump secretly won the 2020 election; and the other two haven’t come up.
Here I’d have to speculate, but: as far as I can tell, he knows which folks are getting the spotlight, and that they’re not getting rebuked; and I don’t know what you mean by “tacitly endorsed”, if it’s something other than ‘getting the spotlight and not being rebuked’.
Nope.
He thinks the Democrats are worse.
In what ways?
Abortion, for one. Illegal immigration, too. I could list half-a-dozen other items he’s mentioned, but I’m not sure how many of them are things he cares passionately about and how many are just things he thinks the Dems happen to be wrong about; but those two, he’s passionate about.
I don’t know how I have up to this point failed to recognize that @D_Anconia is one of the four or five dumbest people on these boards. (“The More You Know” star passes overhead.)
Then your friend is a hypocrite and an idiot, respectively, regarding those two issues.
I don’t see how any intelligent person can, in good conscience, argue both for smaller and less intrusive government and at the same time support one of the most intrusive possible examples of government overreach into private and deeply personal matters. The only way you can understand it is to assume that in their minds, religious proscriptions or nonsensical unscientific beliefs should have primacy over the constitutional liberties of real living persons.
And why does he have his shorts in a knot over Democratic policies on illegal immigration? Democratic administrations can and do enforce border protections and they can and do turn back or deport illegal immigrants. The thing that’s missing is that there isn’t the kind of arbitrary gratuitous cruelty that characterizes authoritarian regimes like Trump or the Nazis, which they regarded as a feature, not a problem, because it catered to the hate that pervades their cult. Instead, simply put, Democratic policies are more aligned with the country’s founding principles and values.
Since I’m pro-choice, I’d presumably be doing his views a disservice by doing a lousy job of arguing for them instead of merely relaying them. (But now that I’ve said that, I guess the least-bad option would be relaying what I’ve heard him say, so: he believes that abortion is murder, and that making it illegal is no different than making his murder or my murder illegal; and that the Supreme Court can and should rule that Roe was incorrectly decided, which would remove the ‘Constitutional liberties’ argument.)
Oh, he of course grants that Biden will take action against some illegal immigrants; he just figures that Biden, in his first term, will do less than Trump would’ve in a second.
You’re letting him control the narrative by getting into a debate over illegal immigration and abortion. You’re allowing them to justify their implicit support for qanon, insurrection bullshit by pretending that a stance on immigration justifies supporting that.
What implicit support? He explicitly says he wants the insurrectionists to be prosecuted; I don’t see that I can argue with him on that explicit point, since I agree, and I’m not sure what implicit argument there is to be had.
Well, we’re not going to revisit that whole argument here, and it’s not directly on-topic anyway (except to the extent that trashing women’s reproductive rights in favor of some made-up mumbo-jumbo is yet another good example of evil). But I will say that “abortion is murder” isn’t an argument, it’s an empty right-wing talking point. In order to be an argument it would have to supported by objective evidence that a fetus is a sentient human being, and certainly through much of the initial stages of pregnancy, at least, it objectively is not. It’s no surprise that Republican pronouncements against abortion are often laced with undercurrents of deep ignorance and misogyny.
As for Roe being wrongly decided, though some may have difficulty following the “right to privacy” argument, just as an example of the underlying logic, in Canada the Supreme Court tackled the issue head-on under the Constitutional protection of “security of the person”, and on that basis overturned all abortion laws, completely.
The main thing Trump would have done differently is found new ways to make immigrants miserable and threaten their lives, as a means of catering to the hate in his rabid base, and the hope that maybe if things were cruel and miserable enough, they’ll stop trying to come to the US. The Nazis had that pretty much figured out with respect to the Jews.
So, the fact that he considers illegal immigration as one of his fundamental disagreements with the Democratic party doesn’t do wonders for your suggestion that your friend disproves SenorBeef’s characterization of the Republican party as, essentially, crazy and evil. The fact is, Barrack Obama deported more people during his presidency than any previous president. By a lot. That your friend still considers the Democrats as insufficiently anti-illegal immigration suggests that either he is entirely disconnected from reality, or that he supports anti-immigration enforcement that is draconian past the point of reason. Neither of which exactly rebuts SenorBeef’s assertion that being a Republican requires one to be either crazy, or evil.
I mean, I accept in principle that one can be concerned about illegal immigration without necessarily being a bigot. But if your friend genuinely thinks that Obama’s robust immigration enforcement was inferior to Trump’s policy of deliberately traumatizing children with the stated intention of scaring off other immigrant families from trying to come here… I’m sorry, but your friend is a piece of shit. That he doesn’t check off any of the boxes in SenorBeef’s “Is a Republican a piece of shit?” checklist just indicates that his list was insufficiently inclusive.
He’s going to vote for the people who acquitted Trump and who refused to repudiate or strip Marjory Taylor Greene of her power/committe assignments, is he not? Whether he votes for someone who denies that Biden won the election is really just a matter of whether his particular congressman is silent on the issue or openly endorses that point of view.
What I took issue with — the bit I quoted, via copy-and-paste, when I ventured in here — was SenorBeef’s claim that “You think this is about abortion. You think this is 1987 or some shit. Being a republican in 2021 is not about some hypothetical good-faith position on abortion. It’s about being part of the cult. It’s about worshipping Trump as the God-emporer. If he tells you that he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history, you need to believe it.”
I thought to myself: hey, I know a guy who is a Republican in 2021, and who doesn’t believe that; what would SenorBeef would make of that?
Again: not the assertion of his that I took issue with.
I don’t see that SenorBeef phrased it in terms of ticking this box or that box on a list that may need more entries; it looked to me like he said that being a Republican in 2021 means needing to tick box X — which, as far as I could tell, just plain wasn’t true.
I don’t know - I guess I don’t see how, “He’s not crazy and stupid in this particular way, he’s crazy and stupid in an entirely different way!” is really a significant defense, here. It just seems like nitpicking.