The jury has asked for additional copies of the instructions. That means they are going over the instructions in minute detail.
Has anyone seen a copy of the instructions? I’ve searched but all I get is media blither.
Not necessarily. Most courts give copies for every juror. It’s easier to have a discussion. If by “minute detail” you mean unusually close attention to the language in the instructions. But sure, they’re going to want to see the exact language of the important instructions.
This website appears to catalog standard Wisconsin jury instructions: Wisconsin Criminal Jury Instructions - Wisconsin State Law Library (wilawlibrary.gov)
It would seem the relevant ones for self-defense in this case would be:
Here’s also an addendum on retreat:
I assume it means everybody wants a copy so they can evaluate the instructions word by word and make notes on their copy.
I agree, I just don’t that means anything. It’s common for jurors to each have their own copy. It’s been years (decades probably) since I did a trial where it wasn’t done that way.
Thanks, but that is about instructions, I’m looking for the Rittenhouse instructions.
In another time and another thread maybe we can discuss the structure of these definitions. There is no question that they are in legal use, but logically they are contradictory and invalid.
I’m confused by your post, those are the standard jury instructions in the state of Wisconsin.
And no, they are not obviously contradictory or invalid, as always in this thread that’s just your opinion (which is at odds with basic legal reality) on much to do with self-defense jurisprudence.
59bb6750-6912-4372-90d2-ce0eb485ae6e_.pdf (2.5 MB)
Apparently, the full specific instructions are also out there for this case.
We agree - “There is no question that they are in legal use”
That doesn’t mean they are logical and non-contradictory
No but if you’re going to assert that you, random internet poster, know better how the laws of criminal procedure ought be structured than the courts and legislatures you have an obligation to at least demonstrate some justification for your belief. You have made none other than just apparently not liking the fact that people have a right to self-defense.
Thanks - that’s it!
36 pages! No wonder they need copies. We may be in for a long wait. I’d say five days is not reasonable to wade through this.
Your ad hominem assertion entirely misses the point of my post.
Ooops should be unreasonable - sorry
Do you know that for sure? That’s not how it works in my state by a long shot. Is the more rural area in the same county? And in my state it’s not based on voter rolls, but on DMV records.
You keep stating this as fact. It may be a conclusion you’ve drawn, but the jury doesn’t have to. There is conflicting evidence on that point, depending on how they view the video. They can find either way.
As far as I’ve seen, he did not testify that he couldn’t run anymore. He said he turned because he wanted to make Rosenbaum stop chasing him. He said he intended to threaten Rosenbaum by pointing the AR-15 at him. That is a threat of deadly force by itself.
Victim blaming is rarely a good look.
I said it before and I’ll say it again: Kyle Rittenhouse is not the victim here.
I know it’s the conservative mind-set is that they are always the real victims but it just isn’t true.
MSNBC just said that the jury requested additional copies of the first six pages of the instructions. That covers the first count.
That seems debatable, and I have to say that the left is almost as over the top in trying to paint this guy as a demon. I’ve heard some really harsh stuff from left-wing or left-leaning news groups and interviews.
Personally, I think this guy was an idiot for bringing a gun, and the folks who assaulted him were idiots for doing what they did. There aren’t really any good guys or bad guys in this mess…just fuckups fucking up. And the two political sides have, once again, drawn lines and taken sides in either building up heroes or calling out demons. YMMV of course.
In my state they use several methods that include both voter rolls and DMV records. And it’s certainly not confined to the town it happened. All felony trials are heard at the county level and jurors come from the entire county.
Yes the jury can conclude that Rosenbaum was chasing him and running up to him to shake his hand but the only eyewitness was very clear about what Rosenbaum was doing and it wasn’t good for the prosecution.
The point is that he’s not required to run forever and it is not reasonable to expect he has unlimited stamina. If he was justified to shoot then he was justified to point. If he wasn’t justified to shoot it doesn’t much matter what he was thinking he was going to do.