The Role Of Jesus In Judaism.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by JeffB *
**I’d be interested in follow-up to this, if this isn’t straying to far off topic or into GD. I’m familiar with some of the issues about Jesus not fulfilling the requirements for the messiah, but this is the first I’ve come across the claim that Jesus was mistaken about Jewish law (as opposed to reinterpreting). **

OK, to give one example:

Jesus permitted his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath. This is something that was prohibited (unless they were in danger of starving, which is not evident from the text).

Furthermore he makes this descision based on the actions of David. His reasoning was flawed on two counts:

(1) David was running for his life from Saul. As such, his life was in danger. Therefore, David’s action of eating consecrated foods was permitted. Jesus’ life (and those of his disciples) were not in danger. There were no grounds to permit his actions.

(2) David’s action (eating consecrated foods) was not a capital crime; even if done wrongly. Jesus’s actions (picking grain on the Sabbath) was a capital crime. So, even if David’s actions were incorrect, one still could not compare them to his current situation.

Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by edwino *
** There is IM very very HO more focus on a merciful and forgiving God in Reform and Conservative Judaism than there is in the more Orthodox branches, which at least in my shul when I was growing up only talked about the Mosaic God and often pretty violent actions.

**

I’m afraid I’m going to have to respectfuly disagree edwino. I’ve yet to hear a “fire and brimstone” sermon in any Orthodox shul.

**
I also think that the concepts of salvation and eternal life through religion are more prevalent in Conservative or Reform versus Orthodox teachings. I certainly was never exposed to those concepts growing up in an Orthodox shul, except in a hazy kind of way. It was never emphasized that I would go to hell if I didn’t fast on Yom Kippur. More like, if you didn’t repent, you would die in the next year.

**

Again, I’m afraid I must disagree with you. Firstly the concept of “salvation” is really a Christian concept. But the concept of eternal life through religion is very important in Orthodox Judaism. We definitely believe in Heaven, Hell and consequences for one’s actions both in this world and the next.

As for Yom Kippur, yes, what you say is true. We believe that we are judged each year on Rosh HaShannah. We take that belief seriously. We don’t teach that if you sin you’ll die (since obviously people who sin survive from year to year), but that the Divine Judge is more likely to judge favorably those who follow His commands.

**
Orthodox branches often accuse the others of being assimilationist and taking cues from Christian rituals and teachings. These go from the quite minor – organ music with services and lack of yarmulkes – to the more major, like egalitarianism and not following laws of Shabbat and kashrut. While these may not come directly from Jesus’s teachings, it is certainly possible that the Protestant spirit of “Do Yer Own Thing” prevalent in American churches rubbed off on Conservative and Reform synagogues, who take steps to make their worship and practice more immediately accessible, understandable (i.e. prayers in English), and liveable than the more Orthodox branches. Much of my Hebrew School training went to the specific practices and laws of Judaism, because from an Orthodox mentality, that is very important. Orthodox Judaism is a way of life, a set of laws which if followed will let you live righteously. For instance, one is nearly constantly praying – from waking up to washing hands to eating to going to the bathroom to going to sleep, and thus aware of the laws.

**

I wouldn’t say that I’m constantly praying. There are prayers that are said three times a day, as well as blessings before and after eating, etc. But I still find the time to go to work, enjoy my family, and post here.

**
From my experiences in Conservative and Reform communities, Judaism is treated much more like the Christian concept of a religion – it is a set of guidelines and mandatory religious rites once or twice a week that keep you in a community and lead you to an eternal life. **

To paraphrase a book I read about Orthodox Judaism: God chose us to be His people and to follow His commandments and live by His Torah constantly. He did not choose us to be His Wednesday night bowling partner.

Zev Steinhardt

[JeffB]

Thanks for the reply, Zev. Having grown up in a religious Protestant environment, I consider myself relatively familiar with some of these issues from a Christian perspective. I’ve tried to gain a better understanding of Judaism, and this board has been a valuable tool thanks to posters like yourself. The Jewish perspective on Jesus is one that I haven’t explored much and could be a very interesting topic.

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by barbitu8 *
**Christians like to “quote” from a line in Isaiah (don’t remember the number of the verse) that the Messiah shall be a scion of David and born of a virgin, and named Immanuel, which, Christians say, is Jesus in English. In actuality, Isaiah says (in Hebrew) that the Messiah shall be born by a young woman, not a virgin. The lines translated by Christian bibles say: “The virgin shall be with child and give birth to a son, and they shall call him Emmanuel.” However, the original text did not say “virgin.”

**

The verse you are referring to is 7:14. However, just looking at the verse in context makes it clear that Isaiah was referring to events that would happen in the next few years, not hundreds of years later. Jews don’t consider that verse to be referring to the messiah for that simple reason.

Plus, as you mentioned, the word used there is not “virgin,” but “young woman.”
Zev Steinhardt

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by John Mace *
**Zev:

Is it possible to determine who is and who is not of the line of David? Just thinking of the eventual Jewish messiah. How will anyone actually know if he is of that line? **

Two possibilities:

(1) There are individuals who are known to have been descended from David. For example, Rashi, the famous biblical commentator (1035-1100) is known to be a descendant of David. If one could trace one’s line to such an individual, that would go a long way to proving the claim. There are a number of such individuals in the last several hundred years.

As an aside, one cannot, however, claim descent through Rashi, because Rashi only had daughters.

(2) Elijah will return before the messiah. He will be able to tell us if any potential messianic claimant is of Davidic descent.

Zev Steinhardt

[Voyager]

I went to a Conservative shul, but the Yom Kippur service is much as Zev describes. We asked for forgiveness of a long list of sins, several times, in order to be written in the Book of Life for the new year. This prayer is directly to God, of course - I’ve never, ever understood the Christian belief that there is an intermediary between us and God.

I don’t remember the word “hell” being mentioned once in all the years I attended. Zev, if Orthodox believe in a hell, could you say more about where this is described? I’ve always thought of it as a purely Christian concept, with obvious borrowings from the Greeks.

[edwino]

Thanks for replying zev_steinhart. You know worlds more than I do about the subject so I humbly defer. Lemme just clarify my point, which I don’t think I made all that well the first time.

I grew up going to an Orthodox shul, which we were never really happy with. Part of this was that we were never really Orthodox after moving to the US. Part of it was that the education and outreach programs of the shul really blew. Sunday school to me was laws of kashrut, laws of Shabbat, laws of the chagim, a few assorted other laws, and back to laws of kashrut. Bar Mitzvah training was memorize this parsha and this haftarah and 'Anim Z’mirot and the Amidah and three different Kaddishes. No explanation of the prayers at all. After I went to college and left organized religion, my parents have joined a Conservative synagogue, and are enthralled by the outreach and education programs. They have lately gotten a lot more involved and paradoxically, more observant.

That being said, I believe that part of the reason that the outreach and education programs are so good in the Conservative synagogue is because they dispense with a lot of the formalities – less emphasis on ritual and more on practice. For example, spending less time explaining why we say “borei pri ha’adamah” instead of “borei pri hagafen” when we eat grapes. Or the correct technique for washing of the hands. Conservatism tries to focus on what it believes is the “gestalt” of the religion. I understand your arguments against this, and I don’t mean to talk bad of Orthodox Judaism, because obviously they concern themselves with the core values of Judaism as much if not more. But there is a kind of distilling of the gestalt from the ritual in Conservatism.

This Conservative distillation IMHO mirrors Christianity, as in the Protestant movement with regard to the Catholic Church. But it goes beyond this. In focusing in on what it means to be Jewish, on what monotheism really means, etc, they tend to wander into personal relationship with God and salvation areas, which I agree, are completely Christian concepts. Which I don’t think they will ever admit. I don’t mean to imply that Orthodox rabbis are out there preaching fire and brimstone – I just mean to say that because this “gestalt” is emphasized, the Conservative God sometimes seems to be a kinder, gentler creature than the Orthodox one.

Again, I don’t mean to demean Orthodox Judaism. I have a reasonable grasp of the Law (all of those Sundays studying kashrut did pay off, I suppose) and I understand why people follow it. I also understand arguments for and against what Conservative and Reform rabbis are attempting to do. I understand that if you believe in God and accept the Oral and Written Law, it is not something that only invovles an hour on Friday night and two on Saturday morning. The only point I am trying to make is that in some respects, the Conservative and Reform movements have taken a cue from similar shifts in the Christian community. At a deeper level, IM very HO some of these shifts can be traced to the teachings of Jesus.

[edwino]

Nitpick my mistake. I realized this morning that you say “borei pri ha’etz” not “ha’adamah” over grapes. I suppose my knowledge is fading…

[barbitu8]

*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet *
**Wow. Excellent information everyone. Very informative.

I, like John Mace, am also interested in learning more about the bloodline of David. Is this something that has been documented through the ages? How odd it would be, I think of myself, to go to work every morning and log onto my computer and drink my coffee, knowing that I was the heir to a holy throne simply by my bloodline. **

The Gospel According to Matthew purports to set forth the genealogy, which I will quote:

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar. Perez was the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram. Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon. Salmon was the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth. Obed was the father of Jesse, Jesse the father of King David. David was the father of Solomon, whose mother haad been the wife of Uriah. Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa. Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, Joram the father of Uzziah. Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah. Hezekiah was the father of Manassah, Manasseh the father of Amos, Amos the father of Josiah. Joseiah became the father of Jechoniah and his brothrs at the time of the Babylonian exile. After the babylonian exile Jechoniah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor. Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud. Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary.

Zev, you responded to a similar question from John Mace. What about that New Testament genealogy?

Also, Zev, I was born Jewish, but am not religious; however, my limited understanding of the afterlife is that the Jews have always believed in some kind of afterlife (and “consequences for one’s actions”, but it was never stated in the Talmud what it would consist of. The concept of Heaven and Hell is a Christian concept. Have Jews, in general, adopted that concept?

[zev_steinhardt]

*Originally posted by barbitu8 *
**
Zev, you responded to a similar question from John Mace. What about that New Testament genealogy?

**

Well, it comes down to a fairly simple question: Who was the father of Jesus? If it was God, then Jesus could not be the messiah. If Joseph, then he is eligible for the messiahship on those grounds (although he fails on numerous other grounds), but that then throws just about all Christian theology out the window.

**
Also, Zev, I was born Jewish, but am not religious; however, my limited understanding of the afterlife is that the Jews have always believed in some kind of afterlife (and “consequences for one’s actions”, but it was never stated in the Talmud what it would consist of. The concept of Heaven and Hell is a Christian concept. Have Jews, in general, adopted that concept? **

There are very few details as to what the afterlife consists of. There is certainly the concept of Heaven. In addition, there is the concept of punishment for one’s sins in the afterlife. However, it differs from the Christian concept of hell in several ways. For one, we don’t hold “hell” to be an everlasting punishment. Except for the truly (on the order of Hitleresque) evil, people don’t spend more than one year being punished. Another aspect is that the very nature of “hell” is not really defined. I’ve heard it described in numerous and various ways; but I suppose that until someone comes back and gives us a detailed report, we’ll never really know for sure.

Zev Steinhardt

[Lazy]

Thank you for your reply, Zev. I spent a little time surfing the web, and it was difficult to find a site dealing with the question of the Talmud Jesus references, either defending or attacking the authenticity of the identification, that wasn’t of dubious objectivity. This article http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=8530 from The Jewish Week seems to suggest that there is a division of opinion on the matter among serious Jewish scholars, with some supporting the idea that the Talmud has disparaging references to Jesus, some denying, and some apparently holding the position that the references are genuine but it is better not to discuss such things while Mel Gibson’s The Passion is in the theatres.