The SDMB Forza 4 "Gutless Wonder" challenge

Inspired by Pilot141’s post in my “Scariest Forza Car” thread, I decided to make up a little challenge to any Dopers with F-4…

The “Gutless Wonder” race…

The rules are simple;
Class F cars only
Performance Index of no more than 102 points
Automatic transmission
Antilock brakes
all other assists OFF, no traction control, no stability control, no racing line, the only permitted assists are ABS and Automatic
Cockpit view (behind the steering wheel)

No Rewind

Track is Stage B of Fujimi Kaido (the really twisty uphill part)

Run the track in your choice of Gutless Wonder and post your best time

in my game, the available cars would be; (Car / Class / PI / HP / TQ)

Citroen C1 / F / 101 / 67 HP / 69 TQ
Ford Pinto / F /100 /85 HP / 98 TQ *
Peugeot 107 / F / 102 /68 HP / 70 TQ
Toyota Aygo / F / 100 / 68 HP / 69 TQ
VW Fox / F / 101 / 74 HP / 91 TQ
VW Scirocco S / F / 102 / 74 HP / 89 TQ *

  • DLC cars not in base game
    Here’s my times, no practice laps, just pick up n’ play

VW Scirocco; 4:20*
VW Fox; 4:27**
Toyota Aygo; 4:35***
Peugeot 107; 4:16****
Ford Pinto; 4:14*****
Citroen C1; 4:17******

  • nothing memorable here, just mediocrity

**an absolute slug acceleration-wise, but very sharp and crisp handling

***absolutely NO acceleration worth mentioning, engine only seems to get power on the high end of the RPM band, this one needs to be revved hard and high to even be marginally useful, not to say fun, 0-60 time? yes, eventually, and to make matters worse, it has a horrible, floaty steering feel and suspension that feels like it’s made of marshmallows, truly a horrible car

****At first this felt as soggy and mushy as the accursed Aygo, but once I got used to the suspension and chassis “quirks” I was able to slide through corners (I would say "Power"slide, but you need to have power to do a powerslide), still a tad too floaty for my tastes, the VW Fox had much nicer driving dynamics

*****Frankly, I’m stunned, I didn’t expect this, so far, of all the cars driven in the Gutless Wonder challenge, the one I’ve not only got the best time in, AND had the most FUN in, what was arguably the “worst” car of the bunch!

I can’t deny that when compared against the other F-Class 100’ish PI index cars, the lowly Pinto can not only hold it’s own, but come out pretty darned good actually, and actually be FUN to drive to boot!

Since the Pinto was the only rear-wheel-drive car in the bunch, I was able to keep the anemic powerband in the sweet spot and kick the tail out in the corners, saving time and preserving forward momentum, and as any driving enthusiast knows, RWD is preferred for keeping the car balanced handling-wise, there’s a reason so many performance cars are either RWD or Mid-Engined-Rear-Drive (MRD)

Plus, the Pinto had the highest Torque numbers of the bunch, and Torque is what gets you off the line and pushes you back in your seat, all other things being equal, a car with a torquier motor will “feel” faster than one with less torque, even if the HP numbers are identical, the Torque of the Pinto’s motor was able to keep it pushing uphill even while gasping for breath without having to have the transmission “kick down” a gear

****** The Citroen was easily my favorite front-wheel-drive car in the Gutless Wonder Challenge, it had the crisp handling of the VW Fox, a usable mid-range grunt, reasonably stiff suspension, and it just felt sharp and precise, easily the most balanced car in the challenge, when compared against it’s fellow front-drive brethren.

For most of the Citroen race, I was playing leapfrog with the Pinto’s Ghost Car, I had a slight edge on the straightaways, due to the more modern, efficient powertrain, but what killed me was the brutal understeer in tight corners, in the Citroen, I had to brake hard when entering the corner, then accelerate near the apex of the turn, scrubbing off valuable forward momentum and speed, with the Pinto, I’d come off the throttle a bit when entering the turn, then give it a little goose to break the rear wheels free and oversteer through the corner

When it comes to performance driving, I’m just more comfortable with a rear-drive car, the handling and power delivery just seem more balanced…

…maybe that’s why I convert all my FWD cars in Forza 4 to RWD, if it’s an option, it’s the simplest and most effective way to balance out the handling

So, my fellow Forza drivers, go choose your favorite Gutless Wonder and attack the hills and twisties of Fujimi Kaido

Just for S&G, I decided to break my own rules a tad, just to show how truly PATHETIC the consumer electric vehicles are (Chevy Volt, Toyota Prius Hybrid, Nissan Leaf)

Same rules as in the OP, automatic, cockpit view, on Fujimi stage B

Chevy Volt; F / 190 / 149HP / 272 TQ
Nissan Leaf; F / 125 / 107 HP / 207 TQ
Toyota Prius; F /197 / 134 HP / 169 TQ

Chevy Volt; 4:18*
Nissan Leaf; 4:10**
Toyota Prius; 4:04***
*What a fat, bloated, obese slug of a vehicle the Volt is, it doesn’t so much corner as it does Straighten the corners, with the massive battery pack it carries and the overall weight of the car, it feels like you’re driving a small house around the track, except that the house would handle better

The Good points of the Volt;
Electric motors produce GOBS of torque right off the line and torque is what keeps the car pulling, it didn’t loose too much speed on the straight climbs,
No peaks or dips in the powerband, no narrow “sweet spot” RPM band

The BAD points of the Volt;
Due to the weight and imbalance of the chassis, it lost speed in the corners, due to having to brake hard when entering even a reasonably tight sweeper, hairpins? fugheddaboutit, you almost have to come to a rolling stop if you don’t want to crash
Electric motors may be torquey, but they don’t have enough kick to create a usable acceleration profile, acceleration was steady, consistent, and SLOW

** Well, colour me impressed!, the Leaf wasn’t as pathetic as I thought it was going to be, in fact, it was actually remarkably fun to drive, it handled like a proper sporty car should, oh sure it had a bit more weight than I’d like, and it was a handful in tight hairpin corners, but no more than any other underpowered front-wheel-drive econobox, it had a bit more side-to-side body roll than I expected, but overall, not too bad

It utterly left the Ghost Pinto in the dust, once I was past the 50% mark, I was so far ahead of Ghost Pinto (Band Name!) that it was a foregone conclusion that the Leaf was faster

The Pinto, being RWD, still handled better and was more fun…
…Hmm, wonder if I could purchase a Leaf, do a RWD swap, stiffen up the suspension, put on Racing Roll Bars, a Race Weight Reduction, and put stickier, wider tires on it, maybe that’d tighten up the handling and balance

The good parts of the Leaf;
Instant torque off the line, reasonably tight handling, decent suspension

The bad parts of the Leaf;
Battery pack throws off balance, adds weight, and makes the car have major understeer in tight hairpin corners

*** Okay, okay, the Prius didn’t do as bad as I thought it would, it did beat the Leaf by a good 6 seconds which is impressive however you slice it, but what I can’t get across by typing, was the difference in the driving feel, the Prius had a similar “dead/appliance” feel as the Volt, it had no spirit, no life, no joy, it was a mechanical conveyance to get you efficiently from point A to point B as safely, efficiently, and boringly as possible

The Prius was more fun to drive than the Volt, which felt truly dead and lifeless, but less fun to drive than the Leaf, part of that goes back to the whole balance of the chassis, the Prius and Volt felt bloated, topheavy, and off balance, they just felt, well, “wrong”, the Leaf felt like driving a normal, conventional car

to be honest the Prius was so boring and mundane that I can’t think of any Good or Bad points, it did beat the other two cars, but there was no joy, no life in it

the Prius would be great for someone who sees cars as an appliance, a way of getting from A to B, for those of us that want to enjoy the driving experience, the Prius and Volt just leave us cold

finally, let’s think about Bang-For-The-Buck here, the typical Hybrid or Plug-In Electric retails for anywhere between $22,000 and 45,000, wheras the cars in my OP, the “Gutless Wonders” all typically retail for under $15,000 to 18,000 (the Pinto, even when new, could be had for even less), yet the hybrids get only marginally better performance than the Gutless Wonders

For a car enthusiast on a budget, a hybrid makes no sense

and no, don’t bother bringing up the Tesla, no fair comparing an electric sportscar to hybrid family sedans…

I put the stock Pinto through in 4:09.1. It really handles well; it just has so little power that any speed you scrub in one turn kills you all the way to the next.

In my F195 “Nine-ball” Peugeot 107 I got down to 3:36.2. It’s not all that much faster at the end of the straights but comes out of corners much harder.

My R2 Mazda Furai catapulted up the course in 2:52.1 and I’m sure I could’ve gone at least a dozen seconds faster. It REALLY hustled and I was rarely at full throttle.

Thanks for putting this up!

When I originally ran the Pinto up Fujimi Kaido with my friend we were racing each other and both scrubbed off speed in corners trying to outmaneuver each other. With this class of car maintaining every last mph is crucial because it takes a LOOONG time to get it back.

I’ll post times in a few days when I get back from this trip but I’m looking forward to it!

And I agree with the Prius being soulless and nothing more than a conveyance appliance. I think some of it has to do with the engine revving up and staying parked at around 6000 RPM no matter what your speed. I know CVTs are supposed to be more efficient, but man do they make for boring drives.

Kinda sounds like I should pick up a copy of Forza 4.

Some say that he is allergic to vowels, and that he still bears a scar from the time a lug nut got cross-threaded on his penis. All we know is he’s called MacTech.

What’s really interesting is that the Toyota Aygo, Citroen C1, and Peugeot 107 are basically the same car, all three are assembled in a Citroen/Toyota/Peugeot joint venture plant in the Czech republic

It really shows how each manufacturer tunes the car to their own specs, strip off the badging and sheetmetal and it’s essentially the same chassis, pity the Toyota version sucks as bad as it does

I’m almost tempted to pick up an Aygo and do a RWD swap and tweak the running gear and driveline to see if it has any potential at all, leave the engine bone stock though

I have level 4 affinity with Toyota in the game, so all upgrade parts, save a bigger engine, are free anyway (when you get level 4 affinity, you get a 100% parts discount, free upgrade parts)

Okay, I’m going to do the “Aygo-speriment”

I took another bone stock Aygo up Kaido section B and got 4:31 seconds

Sluggishness confirmed, it’s not driver error

So, step 1; buy (groan) an Aygo; complete
step 2, convert it to RWD and re-test; complete, vehicle class and PI did not change, still F / 100

Challenge results; 4:23 seconds, a reduction of EIGHT SECONDS! Ghost car left in the dust 30% into the track
The handling on the car was noticeably improved, the massive understeer was GONE, and i could kick the tail out a bit in corners just like in the Pinto, this ONE simple upgrade made the Aygo much more FUN!, it felt alive and balanced, suspension was still a bit soft and tires could be grippier, but those are still to come…

Step 3; upgrade the tire compound to “Race” compound (racing slicks) and put on the widest tires possible (215-45R14 front and rear) to maximize grip and contact patch, reduce stock 30 PSI tire pressure to 26 PSI front and rear, Still Class F, but PI is now up to 124

Challenge results; 4:13 seconds, a full TEN SECONDS faster than the RWD swap, and EIGHTEEN SECONDS faster than bone stock! Ghost car dusted at 15% completion status the suspension, transmission, and engine are still bone stock

The car handles corners with aplomb now, grips the road like glue, combined with the RWD balance, the car is far more controllable than it ever was, however, there’s still a good deal of unwanted body roll and an overall “Mushy” feel to the suspension

Step 4; upgrade the suspension and anti-roll bars to full Race models; still Class F, PI is now 127

Challenge results; 4:13 seconds, ghost car dusted at 10% completion status, no change in final time, however, the car now CARVES corners and remains absolutely flat, NO body roll or squishiness, the car is easier to control in tight corners

Step 5; upgrade the Driveline components (transmission, clutch, Limited Slip Diff, etc…)
Technically this is breaking the rules of the Gutless Wonder challenge, but I want to find out how far I can take the Aygo without touching the engine block itself…

Challenge results; 4:17 seconds, a FOUR SECOND DROP in performance!, I actually lost to the Ghost Car from the last race, I think I know what the problem is, the Racing Flywheel is too light and the engine loses revs too easily, plus, the race transmission really only pays dividends when you drive a manual transmission anyway.
the driveline components really showed no improvement with the horrid sludgebox transmission, so I’m going to conclude the automatic transmission tests and finish up by putting the final touches on the car (race weight reduction, racing brakes, full roll cage, etc…) and run one race in full race kit with the manual…

THEN, I’ll give in to the temptation and add a race intake and exhaust, AND slap on an Eaton Twinscrew race supercharger and intercooler <evil laugh> and run the test again, no engine block mods though

Challenge Results; 4:05 seconds!, Class F, 150 PI, BOW TO THE SUPERIORITY OF THE MANUAL TRANSMISSION!

With the manual transmission, the Aygo is a completely different car, the anemic powerband is a relative non-issue as you’re not fighting the sludgebox’s desire to put you in the wrong gear for the conditions, YOU, the DRIVER, control how long you keep it in a particular gear, it also allows you to keep the engine RPM in the sweet spot when entering or exiting a corner, and really helps kicking the tail free on RWD chassis cars.

with my current mod set of race-spec suspension, tires, rear-drive conversion, and weight reduction, the little Aygo is now a real HOOT to drive, it’s not just fun, it’s LOADS of fun!, enter a corner, drop it a gear and give it a little goose of throttle, and the tail breaks free cleanly and controllably, it becomes a tail happy little bugger, and loads of fun

Okay, time to bring out the Aygo’s Dark Side, Supercharger and Intercooler here I come! BWAHAHAHA!

With the Eaton Race Twinscrew Supercharger, Race Intercooler, and Race Oil Cooler, the tiny little Aygo is now a Class D car, with a PI of 292, sporting 114 HP and 113 TQ…

Race Results; sorry, gotta wipe the massive grin off my face first…
Ahem… total time to run the 3.1 mile B section… 3:35 Seconds, a full ONE MINUTE AND FOUR SECONDS FASTER than bone stock!

Boy, did the Supercharger and Intercooler really liven up this little bugger, it now feels like a Go-Kart for Grownups, it CARVES corners, Powerslides with ease, and has power instantly on tap whenever you ask for it, it’s a tight little package, and really eats up corners for breakfast, lunch, dinner and for a midnight snack…

So, the answer to the question of “Is the Aygo any fun?” is…
Yes!..
As long as you;
convert it to rear-wheel drive
upgrade the crap out of the tires, suspension and driveline
and install a Supercharger and Intercooler…

Oh, and in it’s current config, it’s a Class D car with a 292 PI, AND is a total sleeper, it has NO cosmetic mods on it at all, looks like a basic, anemic Toyota Aygo

To close out this post, let me take my EvilAygo around the Top Geat Test Track, my reference track…

[Jeremy Clarkson] MacTech’s EvilAygo did it in…One minute…and thirty…eight seconds!, not bad for an anemic little city car, albeit one the Stig has blessed with his Holy Touch…[/JC]

Stock automatic Aygo time around the TGTT? 1:55, SEVENTEEN seconds slower

So your megabucks, supercharged, RWD D-class Aygo was all of one second faster than my F-class 107?

Possibly, yes, the best way to test that theory is with another experiment!

Same test procedure, but using the 107, I just need to get to Affinity level 4 with Peugeot

Two things to keep in mind about this experiment;
1; I used the slowest stock car in the game, a car I truly HATED due to it’s gutless power, squishy, mushy handling and overall craptacular performance, and turned it into a little pocket rocket that is insanely fun to drive
2; since I have level 4 affinity with Toyota, the only actual expenses I incurred in game was the purchase cost of the car and the Eaton twinscrew supercharger, all other parts were free, if I had to pay full price for the upgrades, I wouldn’t have done the experiment

Anyway, I think this thread is drifting off subject, maybe we should open a Forza 4 tuning thread…
Sorry for the sidetrack, back to the original purpose of the thread, racing bone stock anemic cars up Fujimi Kaido

Yes! Back to racing desperately underperforming cars on a demanding track!

I will start posting times on Monday the 23rd. And this was NOT simply a bump to get this thread viewed by the weekend Dopers!

As long as we’re on the subject of gutless wonders, what other GW’s would you like to see added to F4, perhaps for the humour value?

My choices;
Suzuki Samauri
Geo metro/Suzuki swift
AMC Pacer
Yugo GV
Peel P4
Opel Kadett (“Oliver”, Richard Hammond’s car from Top Gear’s African Challenge episode)
Original VW Beetle
Original Mini Cooper

Ford Model A
Hudson Hornet*
Oldsmobile “Rocket 88”*
USDM first-generation Honda CRX
Lotus Elan M100*
Mazda 787B*

*Not actually “gutless wonders” - more of a way to see how far we’ve come

1965 Fiat 1500*
1966 Volkswagen Type 34
1968 Opel GT
1970 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia
1976 Renault Le Car**

  • One of my sisters owned one. Very anemic sedan; less than a month after she sold it, I saw it for sale again.
    ** For comparison with the 1980 Renault 5 Turbo.

Just to be different: 1959 Cadillac Funeral Coach.

How about an old Opel GT? That was my first car, and I would love to see how it stacks up against other cars.

So today I was home and did the full Gutless Wonder challenge.

My times, in the order that I ran (with the specs and aids as prescribed, just pick up and go).

Ford Pinto - 4:10
VW Fox - 4:17
VW Scirocco - 4:06
Toyota Aygo - 4:13
Citroen C1 - 4:10
Puegot 107 - 4:07

After driving the C1 and the 107 I wondered if my times were due more to the car or me getting to know the track. So after driving all the GWs I hopped back in the Pinto and turned a 4:05.3.

So I was clearly getting the nuances of the track down with low-powered cars, but the differences in the cars were still obvious.

The Pinto, being RWD, ends up being more fun to toss around. I even had some smoky drifts through some corners (you had to look hard for the smoke, but it was there!).

The VW Fox has decent handling but is crippled by an awful transmission. Just as the car starts getting some personality the tranny upshifts and the engine drops from 6000 RPM to 2500. Any torque you thought you had is instantly gone.

The VW Scirocco handles like crap - it just mushes into any turn. It was also the only car that had me worried about valve stems coming through the hood on the way up that hill. Man, does that engine thrash about and sound like it wants to tear itself apart!

The Toyota Aygo was complete crap.

By the time I got to the Citroen and the Puegot I had the track figured out and could get the most out of the cars. The Puegot actually impressed me as a not awful car. I didn’t take any notes on the Citroen and can’t remember anything specific about it.
Then I did the blasphemous thing as well and took the electric cars up the hill. Surprisingly they were ALL faster than the fastest of the GWs.

The times:

Chevy Volt - 3:55
Nissan Leaf - 4:00
Toyota Prius - 3:49

The slowest of the green cars was 5 seconds faster than the Pinto, and the Prius was an amazing 16 seconds quicker. None of them handled particularly well (the Volt was by far the worst) but the torque available instantly from the electric motors means you are never stuck in the crappy part of the power band, slogging along.

Now I’m going to start tweaking the cars and see what fun I can have with that. I imagine just a small stroking of the Pinto engine and some stickier tires will rocket it past any of the electric vehicles. Let the tuning of the Gutless Wonders begin!

Going with the Top Gear theme: 1980 Fiat Panda with the 652 cc inline 2, which can be converted to 1 litre inline 4 or 24hp electric.

I wonder what the performance index would be for a bone stock two-cylinder Panda. 12½?

Or even the tiny Peel P50 with it’s two stroke 49cc moped engine

I completely overlooked a car that qualified for the Gutless Wonder challenge…

The humble little Ford KA city car…

Ford KA F / 100 / 68 HP / 75 TQ

It did it in 4:10 with the horrible sludgebox automatic, and 4:08 with the manual! and this is bone stock!

On top of that, it had the far crispest, sharpest, and most controllable handling of the Gutless Wonders, yes, even better than the RWD Pinto, the KA is just a brilliant little car, easily the best of the Gutless Wonders so far, it has the sharp handling, firm suspension and overall stable chassis like the VW Fox.

It really only had trouble on the hairpin corners, in particular, the one right before the waterfall corner, but, with the manual, downshifting early to dump a tiny bit of speed and tapping the brakes while entering the hairpin usually kept the understeer from getting too brutal, dropping a gear allowed you to keep the torque curve in the sweet spot and preserve forward momentum and climbing ability

the engine seemed to make good use of the little power it had, the automatic didn’t have the massive torque-eating black hole that seems to plague the other GW’s between the 1-2 upshift, and when driving the manual, the biggest advantage is you could hold it in gear for the brutal hillclimbs and keep the revs near redline, wheras the sludgebox would upshift to the next gear, obliterating the torque you had been building up and relying on to carry you uphill, the automatic would upshift and majorly bog the car down, bleeding off forward momentum

In all honesty, in the GW challenge, the KA would require the least tweaking of the three, a good RWD swap would be basically all that’s needed

And just for S&G, I took my EvilKA up the same track, that’s a fully race-specced out, RWD converted, Supercharged/Intercooled KA up the track, and did a 3:15!

EvilKA was a major hoot, had a huge grin the whole time, that little bugger has razor sharp handling, and power on tap the instant you ask for it, in fact, at times it had too much power, blip the throttle a bit too much at the apex of a turn and you may find yourself spinning out…

It seems there IS a ratio in which you can have too much power for the car’s weight, there’s nothing there to hold it on the track or press the tires down enough to get reliable grip

It’s been a while since I took the EvilKA out for a spin, and I forgot how much fun that little bullet is

EvilKA; Class A / 525 PI / 253 HP 241 TQ

I did go full race-spec on the KA but the engine was putting out too much power for the chassis and tires to deal with, it was skittish, flighty, and wouldn’t stay on the ground, it kept wanting to fly off the track, so I actually had to DEtune it
I had all the Race Spec upgrades, as well as the Ford Focus 2.5L Zetec Four and the aforementioned Eaton Twinscrew race turbo, the powerplant simply overwhelmed the chassis

Tonight, on a Very Special Gutless Wonder Challenge…

(I’m bending my rules a little for this one… :wink: )

Fujimi Kaido Section B…

A beautiful, meandering mountain road, a road riddled with hairpin corners, and brutal, long, unrelenting uphill climbs, a road that makes any Gutless Wonder wheeze and choke in asthmatic agony, especially if they’re saddled with the pathetic automatic transmission, this road can bring many an anemic, underpowered car to it’s knees…

the typical Gutless Wonder time to climb the 3.1 mile uphill course is around 4:05 to 4:30, depending on car, transmission, and driver skill

The cars chosen for the GWC were chosen for their distinct LACK of power, as it makes the race far more challenging, and tonight’s contender is no exception…

It is, as required by the rules, a Class F vehicle…
It has a PI of 151, roughly 50 points above average
It has a HP and TQ rating of 300 and 520 respectively…

What’s this, you ask, how is it possible that a vehicle with that much raw power could be class F?

Well then, let me introduce tonight’s challenger…

the $120,000 credit, 4,100 LB, 6.8L Duramax Diesel powered…
Hummer H1 Alpha!
(also known as “The REAL Hummer”) not that nancy-boy cosmetically rebadged Chevy Equinox abomination currently masquerading as the Hummer H2, and maligning the Hummer name…

The Hummer H1 Alpha automatic ran the GWC in 4:12, a mere ONE second faster than the $5000 credit Ford Pinto! and the Pinto handled dramatically better to boot, yes, the Hummer could easily crush the anemic pinto and barely notice the bump, heck, even if the Pinto detonated in the process, the Hummer would likely barely even notice it…

During the race, the Hummer handled like utter crap, the word “corner” is not in it’s vocabulary, and when confronted with one, it does not know what to do, much like the other bloated, overweight crapbox tested in the GW challenge, the Chevy Volt, the H1 Alpha just could not take a corner to save it’s life, and this is an AWD vehicle, for Og’s sake

The H1A’s handling could be summed up in three words… and no, it’s not “Worst…Handling…Ever”, although it IS among the top contenders, no, the three words are “Brutally Massive Understeer”, if you carried ANY speed into a corner, the H1A wanted to keep going straight, it’s almost like the steering wheel and steering linkage were there for cosmetic reasons only, or added as an afterthought

There was also a similarly dissapointing lack of top speed with the H1A as well, on the flat straightaway near the end of the track, the H1A could barely break 55-60 MPH, it just couldn’t push it’s massively obese bulk any faster on that section of track…

There was ONE good point in the H1A’s favor, torque, GOBS of torque, thanks to it’s diesel powerplant, the long, brutal hills didn’t seem to make it gasp for breath as hard as the gasoline powered cars, it was able to hold on to what little speed it had and not lose much thanks to the diesel’s torque

Oh, and once again proving manuals better, the manual H1A did the same course in 4:00 flat

Personally, I find it hillarious that a $120K credit SUV has lower performance on a twisty mountain road track than a lowly $5,000 to $10,000 credit econobox

…I’m speaking strictly in terms of within the Forza game that is, in real life, given a choice between a H1A and either a Ford Ka, Ford Pinto, or the ToyoCitroePeugot city cars, the decision would be tougher, if I lived in a city (horrible thought, that), I’d probably get the Ford KA, out in the country (where I currently live) a larger vehicle makes more sense, it may not be a Hummer, as I’m no big fan of them either, but it certainly wouldn’t be one of those anemic city cars either