:rolleyes: hyperbole nonsense.
Were they looting in Buffalo? Were they looting that evening? In that place?
If it’s “plenty of time”, let the State arrest them and make their case in court. But substituting violence for due process is not a “society of laws”.
Forget it, Manda JO, it’s Magiverville.
So it was perfectly acceptable to push him, but no reason to arrest him.
Got it.
I would expect the goal is to clear the area and not arrest people.
You left out the part where people are looting and destroying property. This is why they clear the streets.
Looting and destruction of property ain’t crimes people need to be arrested for apparently.
CMC fnord!
This does not sound martial at all. Oh, wait, yes it does, it sounds exactly like that. Did Buffalo declare martial law? If not, why are the police acting like it had?
This is not a wee bit problematic. We have a thing in the Constitution that says that the government is not allowed to deploy the military domestically. Yet, we have the police at hand, ready to act like soldiers when called upon. Which they have been doing. Technically, they are not the military, but the distinction seems vanishing here.
The other disturbing aspect to this is that most of these [del]troops[/del] officers do not live in the city but commute from the suburbs: they have no personal stake or connection in the community, other than the paycheck. Which is to say, they are not even comparable to soldiers, rather they are a mercenary force.
So, obviously, the citizens in front of them – not their neighbors – are the enemy, and are to be treated as such. Pushing a person to the ground, or hitting someone over the head with a stick, or shooting them with rubber or wood or pepper bullets or gassing them is entirely appropriate, because these people in front of them are the enemy.
Hence, if we want this sort of thing to stop, we have to change some attitudes. Otherwise, we should just expect it and STFU about it.
The police officer’s “intent” might be relevant to whether he is convicted, but it bears little relevance to the significance of this incident in the current debate raging over policing practices in the United States.
There was no need for the police to clear the area in the first place. There was no need for a curfew. Both of these things, the order and the curfew, were put in place to give the police an excuse to arrest peaceful protestors and maybe knock a few heads in the process.
The order to clear the area was macho chauvinistic bullshit in the first place. The situation that set the officers in motion and brought the man into their path was manufactured without need by the police themselves.
This is the real significance of the incident: it is another example in a long string of poor policing where citizens are treated as adversaries and cops are authorized to use unneeded force against people who are not a threat.
There shouldn’t have been an order in the first place. The protestors were peaceful. The cops instigated violence.
Whether the investigation finds the cop guilty or innocent is irrelevant to the issue of poor policing practices in the US. The OP’s “complexities” might affect the outcome of the investigation, but that’s got no bearing on why people are so upset about this.
Just because the cop was ordered to act like an asshole doesn’t mean it’s OK for him to act like an asshole. There is no complexity to that.
I suspect it wasn’t to smash his head into concrete, be knocked unconscious, and have blood pouring out his ear while the cops walked right past him.
Just a guess.
Why are they allowed to do that? Why can the police just attack people they perceive as breaking the law, instead of due process?
And assault is reasonable in pursuit of that goal, but not arrests?
But noooooooo, Trump had to add his two scoops…
It is in fact exceedingly simple. If I push you like that, I’m guilty of assault. If there are serious consequences of the pushing, like serious injuries or death (even if unexpected), those consequences will add to the crimes of which I’m guilty. If, before the push, you informed me that my mother was indecently familiar with pineapples, or tried to rile me up in some other way, it doesn’t change the above.
Now, why would it be different if the push comes from a cop? Are they not subject to, or above the law? They are subject to, and are not above the law.
Just because qualified immunity, powerful unions, and the until now presumption that cops tell the truth in cour and on reports when in fact they lie through their eye-teeth meant that there traditionally haven’t been consequences for this types of action does not mean it is lawful.
The protester’s intent doesn’t matter. If he went there specifically to aggravate the cop(s), the push is still not lawful. The fact that there are some amongst us who believe it is (as a “you mess with the bull, you get the horns” type situation) is profoundly disturbing.
Cops are not above the law. They are not the boss of me. Or you.
Old, weak, and infirm exist. They, too, get assaulted. Blaming them for having soft skulls is absurd.
saw a screen capture of what looked like a FB post,
I love how yesterday New York Police Benevolent Association President Mike O’Meara lost his little mind. A quick excerpt: “Stop treating us like animals and thugs, and start treating us with some respect!” he said. “That’s what we’re here today to say. We’ve been left out of the conversation. We’ve been vilified. It’s disgusting.”
What the fuck do these dumbasses think people are protesting for?!? If you and your racist ass officers could have been bothered to treat black and brown folks with respect and stopped treating us like animals and thugs as a matter of course then maybe people wouldn’t be marching in the streets.
A question for everyone in this thread who thinks the officers intentions are germane to this conversation: If your actions do not match your intentions, why should anyone give a fuck about what your intentions were?
If you cause harm, please don’t expect anyone to truly give a damn about why.
Even clever attempts at accusations of trolling are prohibited outside The BBQ Pit.
Given that you worked hard to disguise it, I will limit my response to a Note, but do not do this again.
[ /Moderating ]
I think most people would rather be shoved aside than cuffed, stuffed, and hauled off to the police station. The latter is far more of a bodily intrusion than the former.
Because battery requires a specific intent. If I am standing behind you at a convenience store counter and you turn to leave, unaware that I am there, and knock me over like a linebacker in the NFL, that is not a crime. If you turn around, recognize me as someone you don’t like, and knock me over in that exact same way, it is a battery. Intent certainly matters.
And I’m with Magiver here. I think the guy flopped. He obviously didn’t mean to crack his skull open but that push was so tiny, just a “get outta here” shove and he fell way faster than he was pushed. I admit I could be wrong, but if this was the NBA, he would get a technical.
And yes, he did batter the officer by striking him on the hand with his cell phone. Watch the video. The officer has a right to repel a battery.
So, let’s review. He was illegally in public. He obstructed a police function. He battered an officer. Instead of arresting him, the officer gave him a get the hell out of here shove. Either by flopping or being an old man, he fell and cracked his head.
It was an instinctual one second response, unlike an eight minute George Floyd response. My outrage meter is at zero and perhaps the lesson that should be learned is obey the law, if you aren’t going to obey the law, stay out of the way of the police enforcing the law, and if you fail to do both of the former, don’t batter a police officer. I think that is fair enough for most people to keep from having this happen to them.
Describing the cop’s push as “so tiny” while simultaneously describing “striking him on the hand with his cell phone” as battery (it’s not even clear if there was actual contact between the cell phone and and officer, and any contact seems purely incidental) is absolute fucking bullshit and you should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it.