Preach it, brother. I can’t wait until that video of the soldiers fucking the 14-year-old boys gets released. That’ll teach those fucking terrorists who’s boss, won’t it?
John Carter, a quote from Senator Lindsey Graham, R-SC, on Meet the Press this morning (apologies if this has been quoted already in this thread):
Transcript here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4938258/
Lindsey, ol’ pal, at least it isn’t about a blowjob, or you’d have to actually do something about it, right?
The facts are what they are, and we’ll find out for ourselves pretty soon. If his outrage is genuine, that’s fine. But the former impeachment manager isn’t entitled to any assumptions about his motivations, unfortunately.
Maybe you didn’t notice, but I previously provided citations. Please note:
United Sates Senator Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., "said he wants to ‘prepare the public: Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing events.’”
Sen graham also said;
“The American public needs to understand we’re talking about *rape and murder * here.”
IMHO, rape and murder is worse than rape and torure. Of course, rape, torture and murder would be even worse than the previous combinations. YMMV.
Second, I cited Rumsfeld’s comments about the blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane physical violence towards prisoners- "It’s going to get a good deal more terrible…” twice.
Third, I provided a citation for “U.S. military officials” saying that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” [And that] …there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
IMHO, the implied minimum of at least two murders, three rapes, one severe beating, and “inappropriate” acts with a dead body combine for something worse than “12 yo girl being tortured & raped.” YMOMV.
So here’s another “US official” who stated that some thing even worse than a “12 yo girl being tortured & raped” has happened.
In short, I’m not really sure of what you want as you’ve asked for what you’ve already been given.
These things were characterized as “events.” Events that’re more disturbing that what’s come out so far.
Senator Graham described these “events” with the words “rape and murder.” And, as previously noted, IMHO, rape and murder is worse than rape and torure. Of course, rape, torture and murder would be even worse than the previous combinations. YMMV.
While I might quibble about how you qualify the relative level of substantiation, I don’t doubt that you’re unaware of the incident being “referenced by any official source.”
Yet, even this presents no discernable problem to assuming, hypothetically, ftsoa, that these charges are true.
Sorry, but movies with cannibals just don’t turn my crank. If I wanted stomach-churning nausea, I’d listen to Limbaugh.
And I see Brutus and John Carter of Mars are still spinning their wheels with the whole “Evil UN corruption ruined the Iraqi food-for-oil program” allegations.
What damn video are you talking about? The one made by the same porn company that made those “soldiers doing a gang rape” vid?
Look, there could still be worse. But we could make up hypotheticals all the time: “what if GWB was actually a space alien from “To Serve Humanity” and he was just fattening us up for the cattle drive?” :rolleyes:
When we see the actual evidence (and not 3rd rate porn, OK? :rolleyes: ) then we can make some informed decisions. Please note that I was against the Invasion from the get-go (OK, I did admit that I’d accept it if we had UN approval). But just pulling out of Iraq without setting up some infrastructure and quashing some of the worst violence- is just plain foolish. So- NO there is NOTHING where’d I agree to “Does not this rise to a level of atrocity where you will say, we must leave, all of us, yesterday, with no reservations and no excuses?” as our Op asked. But I would want lots & lots of trials & convictions, including some at the highest levels. Maybe we’d have to not only get Rumsfield to resign, but we’d have to have him in Jail.
Most likely the one referred to several times in this thread already:
Reposting=SimonX
Here’re two attempts at links to cached versions of the article:
**Rumsfeld apologizes to abused Iraqis
Defense secretary warns that worse photos, videos are yet to come **
NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 07:00 PM PT May07, 2004
But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.”
“There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “… It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.”
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
© 2004 MSNBC.com
Things are getting bad for Rummy and Bush when “The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Times”, call for Rummy’s resignation (supposed to be in Monday’s editorial).
Jesus, the news reporters are trying and failing to contain their excitement about the prospect of getting new torture pictures and footage. Ewwwwww…
I think I get where you’re coming from, Doc: no matter how bad we’ve screwed up, we’ve got to make good, and this bad shit only underlines our responsibility. And I can understand that.
On the other hand, I have to have an eye out for the position that says our very presence renders progress impossible, that as long as the Iraqi people see us as an occupying force, they cannot see anyone as a liberating force.
If we are lucky enough to get substantial foreign help (and if it takes GeeDubya fellating Kofi Annan in Macy’s window at high noon to get it, so be it…) that could be a good thing, if it is seen as “them in, us out”. But if we remain while bringing in more “back up”, they are likely to see the UN (or whomsoever) as being merely co-conspirators.
Frankly, at this point, I see very little chance that we can make any progress on the “hearts and minds” front. Maybe someone else can.
The nightmare scenario I am currently dreading is a retaliatory atrocity committed by Iraqis on our people, which would inflame the passions for vengeance amongst our people, who are not given to cheek-turning. It would be very tempting for the Bushiviks to use such passion to thier own political ends, and I very much doubt they have the moral courage to refuse such an opportunity.
Maybe if America gets a “re-branding” with a new President…
Seriously though: a lot of the anti-American hatred is really anti-Bush hatred. With a new President, and a feeling of repudiating past mistakes, we might well have a chance to gain back a bit of our image.
I assume that if they actually show 14 y.o. being raped, they won’t be released, for obvious reasons.
This seems to be why Rummy and others are issueing these “worse to come” warnings, some journos are apparently offering big bucks to get their grubby hands on any pix. Not so “embedded” now, eh?
C’mon, Capt. Phart, you don’t get away with “blame the messenger” that easily. Granted, the press has failed us on many occasions of late, but going after THESE vids and photos, which are proof of malfeasance by U.S. soldiers and their military and civilian leaders, is one instance of journalists doing their jobs. Sure, the photos are salacious, but I never heard the Repubs getting all worked up at press interest in what was acknowledged by all to be a consensual blowjob, not too long ago.
I’m not blaming journos for reporting what’s out there - the blame is for those who committed the acts and for those in positions of power who knew about them and did nothing or little to prevent it, despite being told long ago by the Red Cross and others.
It took press revelations to get anything done at all - but obviously at a terrible cost in terms of the situation in Iraq.
But that doesn’t stop me finding much about the profession distasteful. I can see why we have to have traffic cops; it doesn’t mean I have to love them.
By SimonX: “Maybe you didn’t notice, but I previously provided citations.”
You provided citations. I noticed, and even read them. I thought I was quite clear in asking for a cite specific to the rape and torture of a 12 year-old girl. So far, none has been provided except the one that contains a disclaimer.
The rest of the story is that bad stuff is coming. The details are not available to the mortal man, as S & G stated so long ago.
My objection here is the use of hyperbole like “12 year-old raped and tortured” when no such thing has been verified. There are enough interesting things going on without resorting to that.
Ewwww!!! :eek:
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There’s none so blind as those who won’t bother looking for easily available information just so they can hold the party line firm is there.
I now sit back confident the usual suspects will attack the source (ooh, shock, horror, an Al Jazeera journalist) and call it unsubstantiated but as far as I’m concerned what we already know and what Rumsfeld himself has hinted is to come makes this bloody credible. And no - it didn’t claim she was raped but I hope no one here, apart from the deranged Iskander, is going to make that their point of defence. Particularly as…
Rape of teenage boy by contractor (mercenary torturer to us English speakers)
Aah - that was the thing that started the thread, forgot about that. Still - I stand by my point. The burden of proof that these things didn’t happen is on those that deny it IMO.
Here’s the Army Times editorial iamme99 mentioned:
A failure of leadership at the highest levels
Looking at the poll on the front page, the troops appear to agree with this assessment of responsibility.