The Trump Administration: A Clusterfuck in the Making

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@jsc1953

If the protests had consisted entirely of the Daughters of the Confederacy, standing before a statue of Lee with signs saying “Please preserve our southern heritage”…you might have a partial point. But that’s not what happened. And in light of what did happen, Trump deserves all the scorn he can get for his “both sides” comment.

My bold: straw man. My previous reply addresses the rest.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Fiddle_Peghead

My bold: straw man. My previous reply addresses the rest.

You might want to look up the definition of the “straw man” fallacy.

Key point: **jsc1953 did not attribute a position that someone did not hold. He was positing a hypothetical. The hint is in the word at the beginning of the sentence; ** IF

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@Sage_Rat

In addition to wguy123’s quote of the question to which Trump was answering, …

I didn’t address that directly because he only quoted a very small portion of the press conference. No context there…

…it should also be noted that the Daughters of the Confederacy - who put up those statues - were pretty clearly the female arm of the KKK, if you look into them. They were the wives and daughters of KKK members, put up a commemorative plaque for the KKK itself, and created and used pro-KKK history books to the schools.

This may very well be true. I have no idea. But the ones who put up the statues were not there. At least I assume they are all dead. Anyway, this is not relevant what I’ve said here.

If you look into the history of those statues, there’s really nothing positive about them beyond, perhaps, artistic merit and the opportunity to raise the question of our history of racism and slavery. Both of the latter can be done perfectly well by putting the statues in a museum and making it clear that they were crafted by the people who went on to do things like this.

Sure. I have no problem with them all being torn down and/or preserved in a museum.

[JohnT]

@Fiddle_Peghead

Nothing has escaped me. Certainly there are white supremacists and Nazis who wanted the statues to stay up. And of course these people are not “very fine”. But just because you wanted the statues to stay up does not necessarily make you a racist. But the racism of the participants is not the issue. Who Trump was to referring to is. You can see the press conference where he made his statement on YouTube. Trump makes a distinction between the neo-Nazis/white supremacists and people who were there simply to protest removal of the statues. If one wants to make the argument that these protestors are not very fine people, fine, but in Trump’s eyes, they are. This is not the same, obviously, as saying the separate, distinct group of neo-Nazis white supremacists are also very fine.

I am aware that in today’s political climate, no opportunity to disparage the other side can be ignored. But each time you make false accusations, your credibility is diminished. As I said, there are so many things the left can attack Trump for. They don’t have to invent them.

Until you can explain to me why we don’t have statues of Erwin Rommell and Ho Chi Minh dotting the landscape but do have statues of racists working to preserve a racist institution, the bolded part is a bald assertion with no basis in historical fact.

They got statues for some reason, FP, and the people defending them are defending them for some reason, and it sure can’t be patriotism (as they are, to a man, traitors) or to honor Americans (because they seceded and are being honored for their actions while in the state of secession).

It is racism, plain, pure, and simple.

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@Euphonious_Polemic

You might want to look up the definition of the “straw man” fallacy.

Key point: **jsc1953 did not attribute a position that someone did not hold. He was positing a hypothetical. The hint is in the word at the beginning of the sentence; ** IF

Thanks for making that point, that “straw man” is the wrong term.

I’ll put it this way: the hypothetical is irrelevant.

ETA: typo

[Fiddle_Peghead]

@JohnT

It is racism, plain, pure, and simple.

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

[Crotalus]

Here’s an editorial from the Roanoke Times that dissects the situation surrounding the “fine people” statement. I think it’s kinder to Trump than he deserves, but the conclusion they reach is that if Trump thought that some of the demonstrators were there to actually protest the removal of the statue, he was wrong.

[Procrustus]

@Fiddle_Peghead

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

We don’t have to read their minds. If you support the Klan, you are supporting racism and violence. That’s true even if you support them just because they stand up to “bleeding-heart, socialist America-hating liberals.”

If you support keeping up statues of Confederate leaders, you are supporting racism.

[Dewey_Finn]

@Fiddle_Peghead

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

Isn’t it imparting motivations and reasoning on others to think that those who wanted the statues removed are “America-hating” or socialist (or bleeding-heart, whatever that is)?

[Ukulele_Ike]

Not to derail the thread, but as a historian, an aesthete, and an admirer of large, scary statues, I don’t want to see these monstrosities melted down into tea kettles. Can’t we move them out of town squares and into a bunch of “memorial parks,” like the Hungarians did? We could hang big signs saying “these guys were a buncha assholes, but their descendants could afford to hire top sculptors.”

Memento Park

Gutzon Borglum’s monument to the North Carolina Confederates in Gettysburg is at least as fine a sculpture group as the Iwo Jima memorial in Arlington.

North Carolina State Monument (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania)

[iiandyiiii]

@Fiddle_Peghead

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

Maybe some folks came to the march just because of statues. But then they would have seen a bunch of neo-Nazis and KKK guys with swastikas and other imagery (and chants) of hate. If they stayed and marched alongside them, then it’s entirely fair to lump them in together. Any decent person who came just for the statues, with no ill will towards black people or Jews, would have left as soon as they saw all those swastikas and KKK/Nazi imagery.

There were no “good people” who stayed on the side of the KKK and neo-Nazi marchers. The only “good people” were those that came to oppose them.

[Monty]

@Fiddle_Peghead

But just because you wanted the statues to stay up does not necessarily make you a racist.

Actually, it does. The crowing of “It’s our heritage” is celebrating and demanding the honoring of a racist period of the nation’s history. Those whom the statues honor were racists. It’s one thing to have them in a museum, but it’s quite another to put those heroes of racsim on an altar.

@Fiddle_Peghead

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

There is no other reason. The statues were put up by racists. When they were put up, there was no doubt about who and why. And, yes, you can infer motivations based on consistent actions.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Fiddle_Peghead

To say this implies you can read the minds of the protesters. Can you not imagine another reason why some might not want the statues taken down? Not the least of which may be not wanting a bunch of “bleeding-heart, socialist, America-hating liberals” coming in and telling us what we can and cannot do. I think the arguments for taking down the statues are strong, as do you. But you cannot impart your motivations and reasoning on others like that. Maybe some of them are racist, but it is by no means pure and simple that they are.

Do any of those reasons not also give the racists what they want? :dubious:

[Ukulele_Ike]

Neither do I support blowing the sculptures at Stone Mountain, Georgia, off the face of the rock with dynamite. They are an amazing result of artistic engineering.

Just post a lot of signs at the base reading POINT AND LAUGH. This would disarm the racists and allow mooks like me to appreciate the work.

[Skywatcher]

@iiandyiiii

There were no “good people” who stayed on the side of the KKK and neo-Nazi marchers.

Except in the simple minds of fellow bigots.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

Uh… Guys… No.

It wasn’t that there were a few neo-nazis at a march about confederate statues. It’s that the march was planned and advertised for by and of neo-nazis from the start. Anyone there knew what it was about - and so did the counterprotesters.

[Euphonious_Polemic]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Uh… Guys… No.

It wasn’t that there were a few neo-nazis at a march about confederate statues. It’s that the march was planned and advertised for by and of neo-nazis from the start. Anyone there knew what it was about - and so did the counterprotesters.

And as **iiandyiiii ** has pointed out, in the highly unlikely event that someone did not know that the march was planned for, by and of neo-nazis, and went along out of some love of historical statuary…

Once they GOT THERE, and discovered that it was a NAZI march, with swastikas, white nationalists etc.

Then they had a choice at that point:

1. Join the Nazis and march with them in support
2. Leave.

By staying, these hypothetical “I’m only about loving the statues” people have then chosen to throw their support behind Nazis. They are no longer “good people”. They are “Nazi-supporting people”.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Fiddle_Peghead

Nothing has escaped me.

This is clearly incorrect.

[The_Stainless_Steel_Rat]

I hate to interrupt a good argument, but back onto the Trump administration…

While President Sharpie was watching the Hurricane menacing Alabama, Vice President Pence made a couple European visits that…could have gone better.

Ireland: The Veep went with the party line and backed Boris Johnson on Brexit; the Irish were not amused. The Irish Times view on Mike Pence’s visit to Ireland: that didn’t go very well – The Irish Times

Pence was of course only echoing his master’s voice in supporting Johnson and denigrating the EU.

Varadkar rightly pointed out to Pence the impact that a hard border would have on the island of Ireland, particularly the danger it would pose to the gains linked to the Belfast Agreement, and told his visitor that was why Ireland and its EU partners would stand their ground.

And then a quick trip to Iceland, which had it’s own little protest: Rainbow flags all around Reykjavík during Pence visit | Icelandmag

Rainbow coloured flags could be spotted all around Höfði, the house where Mike Pence, the Vice-President of the United States, stayed for most of his time during his one-day state visit to Reykjavík yesterday.

Probably be sent by the Pres to Alabama now…

[digs]

@The_Stainless_Steel_Rat

Probably be sent by the Pres to Alabama now…

To throw paper towels.