This is wrong on so many levels, I don’t know where to begin…
About the Faramir change they did try to explain it in the commentary. Their reasoning was that it would reduce dramatic tension if Faramir was completely uninterested in the ring which after all was supposed to be so highly seductive. Much more dramatic to have him tempted and then refuse. I haven’t read the book but movie-wise I think it makes a lot of sense. Even more so after they fill in the Faramir/Boromir backstory in the EE. The commentary also explains why they added the Aragorn fake death. In general even if you don’t agree with all their decisions I think the commentary shows that they did put in a fair amount of thought when making such changes.
Not to mention that he can’t have any woman until he’s king. Sixty-some years is a mighty long dry spell.
As for the trees, sure, most of the characters wouldn’t know what they are. But even an Orc can figure out that if there’s a bare valley one day, and an old-growth forest the next, that something a tad unusual is going on.
I so disagree.
Personally, I felt that Theodred’s death was shrugged off pretty quickly in the theatrical version, with the exception of Theoden’s excellent scene with Gandalf. Adding an extra mintue or two of Theodred’s procession to the tomb added much more depth to it.
And Eowyn’s chanting was perfect. It didn’t have the technical perfection of Enya or Loreena McKennitt, but damn, it was heartfelt. It sounded like she was singing through tears, as it should have. I think I would have been disappointed if it had sounded perfect, because it shouldn’t have. It should sound like she was singing from her heart, not her mind. It was exactly as it should have been, and it was perhaps the nicest real surprise in the Extended Edition.
Which is saying a lot, because the Extended Edition is definitely a stronger, more consistent film. I liked the theatrical release, but the EE tightened up so many of the loose ends, and gave more reason for some of the changes made from the books. Faramir, who got short shrift in the theatrical version, is given a more proper treatment here. Merry and Pippin, barely side-players in the theatrical version, get a much more full-bodied role in the EE. The plot flows better in general, and my wife’s comment upon seeing the new scenes was “It makes sense now!” That sums it up pretty well.
Fellowship of the Ring was different. The theatrical release was very good, and the EE was very good. Some of the individual scenes in the FOTR EE were cut better, but overall I like both versions. For Two Towers, it really seems like the Extended Edition is the better film. A diehard Tolkien fan or just a movie fan should both enjoy the Extended Edition more, I should think.
I was happy to see the appearance of the Huorns in the EE. It would have been really creepy if they’d kept it like the book – the orcs simply disappeared after running under them – but it would be difficult to convey then, that some 10,000 foes were suddenly no longer an issue.
I was delighted to find out where Brego, the horse, came from. In the theatrical version, when he showed up I was thinking, “Where’d he come from? Sent by Arwen? All the way from Rivendell?? Some wild Mearas that wandered by? No, he’s shod – belongs to somebody.” The EE explains it quite nicely.
DD
Warning! This post definitely contains RotK spoilers!
Maybe we are talking apples and oranges here. Personally, I think it’s pretty clear in the books that Faramir was trying to gain Denethor’s approval. Maybe it’s interpretation, but in that case, I agree with PJ. Maybe I’ll dig out the books over the weekend to see if I can find some of the passages that made me feel that way.
I will say that the added scene in Osgiliath seems in character for father and sons, barring the part of Boromir who did ask to go to Rivendell in the books. As a cite, I give you this:
Clearly they did get along.
I can also say that there was a built in inferiority to Faramir. Take the names Boromir and Faramir:
This is just an subtle example though. I think from the book it’s clear that Denethor favored Boromir. It wasn’t until Faramir was dying that Denethor seemed to realize his love for his second son. Speaking of which…
shrug I understood some of what Gandalf or Aragorn said to mean that he fell under the Black Breath due to the time he spent under shadow. By that I mean in close proximity to the ring wraiths.
As support for that, do you remember this? The arrow that hit Faramir was not from the Nazgul. It was a Southron arrow.
There is also this:
In other words, it’s a debilitating effect of being in proximity with the Nazgul over a period of time.
Regarding Aragorn… I did not say that Aragorn was reluctant. I did agree with the term uncertain though. Do you not remember him questioning his decisions? What should he have done after Gandalf fell? Should he have went after Frodo or Merry and Pippin? Aragorn is not reluctant to shoulder responsiblility or do his duty, but I do think there is uncertainty in him. I thought PJ handled this well.
Yep. Typo. Kind of like typing now instead of not when you are typing in a hurry. See the first thing I quoted from you in this post if you want an example. People in glass houses and all that…
I guess it’s good to hear that people liked this. I want the LotR movie project to do well. I think that PJ and the actors deserve to be richly rewarded.
For me though this scene was overblown in the extended edition. The main purpose of the scene seems to be to a seque to the two small children arriving. I also ask, how long was spent on Theodred’s burial in the book? There is enough of the book that was excluded that I guess I felt that this was time better spent elsewhere.
I’m not saying this scene in any way ruined the movie for me. I’ll just say that when Eowyn started singing/chanting, my girlfriend and I looked at each other with “what the hell” kind of expressions. The looks were not because we liked it either.
Still, I think the extended edition is outstanding.
RogueRacer, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree!
I like a lot of the extended footage; I don’t like the character interpretations in a lot of the movie.
And this may be the problem of actually filming a book like LOTR. People start thinking that the movie is what the story is really about. At best, it’s a director’s interpretation of what the book is about, leavened with “necessary changes” to make the story work better AS A MOVIE.
I begin to understand those who had objections to the story being filmed at all.
Still curmudegeonly here, I guess.
ArchergalFair enough. 
Although we went back and forth on this, I will say that I was quite tweaked with Faramir’s portrayal when I first saw the theatrical version. I disliked the whole bit of taking the ring to Osgiliath. Although I do think that Faramir was after Denethor’s approval, I thought taking the ring to Osgiliath was not a step he would have taken. The extended edition actually helped resolve my issues with these changes from the book. After reading and hearing PJ’s comments on these changes, I guess it makes some sense.
It doesn’t ruin the story for me. I just laugh every time I hear Sam’s line about “we shouldn’t even be here.”
I suppose Reluctant is the wrong word to use when talking about the books, but anytime I read it, I always get the impression that being King of Gondor wasnt something he overly wanted.
Guess its just a matter of opinion… and hey maybe I willl change my mind next time I read it
This contains apossible really BIG spoiler for the Return of the King, I read it in the Official Photo Guide of ROTK
In the guide it says “As his daughter,Arwen, lay dying” WHAT??? Ok I get that she has given up her immortality, so maybe thats what they mean, or maybe its because the elves are supposed to be leaving these shores and she obvisouly didnt, but why exactly is she dying? I just dont understand it, anyone have any more spoilers as to what exactly this is about??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Archergal *
**And this may be the problem of actually filming a book like LOTR. People start thinking that the movie is what the story is really about.
**
The movie IS what the movie is about. First and foremost, Jackson has to make the movies successful AS movies, with faithfulness to the books a secondary concern. I think he’s done an admirable job.
Yeah, I should just let it go and accept this. The movie is the movie, and the books are the books.
I just hate that folks that haven’t read the book think that the movie is the whole story.
Oh well.
Some people will read the books because of the movie. Those that think the movie is the whole story probably wouldn’t read the books anyway. Me, I have an edition of the books my dad bought for me when I was about 10. I’ve read the Hobbit outloud to my son over the course of a month, and I hope to get him to read the trilogy when he’s a bit older.
Delly, Arwen indeed died in ROTK. Read the appendices. They describe her death in some detail, laying herself down upon Cerin Amroth, where she and Aragorn plighted their troth many years ago. So I suppose the movie closes with that scene, and perhaps Gimli and Legolas setting sail
Archergal,
Could be worse, they could have stayed faithful to the books and turned it into Harry Potter. Or David Lynch’s Dune.
I’ve read the books three times prior to the movies coming out. The last time about ten years before. Never a huge fan (in comparision, I read To Kill a Mockingbird about twice a year - but that is something less of a committment than LotR). I thought the movies did an admirable job capturing the spirit and feeling of the books. Rereading the books post movie and I say “Gee, this is different” but I can understand most of the rationale behind the decisions. Pacing is different in movies (and the books have HORRIBLE pacing). Plot has to be visual (Tolkein is very language based book - more about place and language than about plot or character).
Whenever you are wed to a book, you really shouldn’t bother with anyone else’s interpretation - a filmatic interpretation, an after the fact sequel (those God Awful Pride and Prejudice sequels, the horrible Gone with the Wind sequel). Even studying the book with others or reading the Cliff Notes can be frustrating as you discover that your interpretation is not the only interpretation. You are only setting yourself up for disappointment. Even if the movie had been perfect (Harry Potter was about as true to the book as you can get, with Rowling standing over Chris Columbus’ shoulder) there is always something wrong (I pictured a very different set of Dursleys - particularly Petunia - and a very different Hermione).
(Saw the extended last night and thought it was a much better movie than the theatre version. The theatre version was primarily a war film - Helm’s Deep - more Helm’s Deep - more Helm’s Deep. This was much more about character - with Helm’s Deep thrown in. And why is Faromir the only guy who looks like he has regular access to bathing facilities?).
Qadgop
Ive read the appendices, I know shes dies after everything, but this is at the start of the photo book, it says ‘his daughter lies dying…’ then shows a pic of Elrond I assume making some decision about the sword, then it shows a pic of Arwen and it sais she says to her father ‘i wish i could have seen him one last time’ later in the same photo book it says she is gravely ill and only saurons end wills ave her, so it cant be an ending scene
Dangerosa…because he is, I dont think bathing and keeping clean were a prime concern when faced with battle from 10, 000 Urak-hai;)
Then I’ve no idea, because they’ve certainly strayed from the Canon of JRRT.
I guess we’ll know more in 3 and a half weeks. Or in a year when ROTK EE comes out.
Aurë Entuluva!
Henneth-Annun (I don’t know how to get that “^” over the “u” though.)
Actually, in both versions Faramir enters the room after questioning Gollum, fishes the ring out with the tip of his sword, and gives the aha! speech. In that bit he says here we all are, me with all my men, you with the Ring… “a chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality.” So, Sam could justifiably repeat that back to him without knowing anything at all about the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor bit.
Points taken. And these scenes mirrors similar lines from the books.
I guess my problem, perhaps difficult to explain, is that we have Faramir in several parts in the EE cut, and they don’t fit together well enough to make his Sewer Speech to Sam work, at least for me:
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First Faramir is a suspicious guerrilla fighter who’s captured two hobbits; his character is threatening and he’s very opaque to both us and Frodo and Sam. His entire connection with Sam: “you’re his bodyguard?” “I’m his gardener”.
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Through a series of flashbacks, we see him as the “black sheep” of the family, craving the same approval from his father that he gets from Borimir. OK, we’ve got some sympathy going here, maybe we like this guy after all. I really liked these additions.
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Now we’re back to “opaque and suspicious” Faramir: he has his men beat up Gollum, he learns or suspects Frodo has the ring, then he confronts Frodo, delivering his Line From the Book: “a chance for Farimir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality”. But the main Sam connection is this: “don’t you understand? We’re trying to destroy the ring! Won’t you help him?!” Faramir: “The Ring goes to Gondor!” and piss off, Master Samwise. Not a very good place that these characters can later reconcile.
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Big Events happen, Faramir has a change of heart. And now Faramir and Sam have a Touching Moment where F and S are giving each other respectful speeches from the books: Faramir: “Praise be the Shire, where Gardeners are held in honor.” Sam: “Faramir, duude, you soo rock. You are a class act for sure.”
Well, it almost works, but not quite – the exchange in part 4 is only barely supported by 1/2/3. After the ordeal Faramir had put Frodo and Sam through, I could see Sam being circumspect towards Faramir until F & S were well away from this threatening Gondorian. I surely wouldn’t expect Sam to confess his admiration to for him, nor Faramir to him. YMMV.
I was bothered by the horse wandering around by himself with a halter on, trailing a lead rope. You just don’t do that!