The Two Towers Extended Edition - SPOILERS

Just wanted to chime in on my own reaction. I loved the EE…it was a hundred times better than the theatrical, and it was a fine movie to begin with.

I was a bit mad over the initial treatment of Faramir. He’s in my favorite 3 characters- Gandalf and Sam being the other 2- and he was a stranger to me in the film.

Then i thought about it, and read some of Jackson’s rationale. It’s all a tradeoff, I think. Faramir has to be tempted by the Ring, whatever happened in the book, becasue of Aragorn’s nobility and the power of the Ring.

This scene in the end of FOTR was one of the most powerful in the movies- Aragorn confronts Frodo and is faced with temptation- and endures:

Aragorn (voice cracking as he folds Frodo’s hand over the Ring): I would have gone with you to the end. To the fires of Mordor.

Frodo (looking with giant, CGI enhanced Elijah Wood eyes): I know.

stonebow crying in theatre

To maintain the integrity of that scene, Faramir has to be tempted, fall, and redeem himself. The EE made it make more sense, as he is not simply a bastard for bastard’s sake…but it has to happen, or else Aragorn is diminished.

just my 2 cents.

Corbomite, I always thought it weird too that Haldir didnt have a helm, especially considering I always thought he died of a head wound, but the people over at ringbearer told me the axe doesnt hit his head, but the top of his back close to his neck… least, I guess thats where they meant.

And if you’ll notice, the only central character who wheres a helm is Eomer, all the rest, Aragorn, Legolas Theoden, Haldir etc. dont where helms because it could be confusing for us the viewer to see who is who. Thats the reason given over there anyway, and it does seem plausible.

Dont nitpick now and say Gimli has one… hes a dwarf who practically wheres it 24/7…:stuck_out_tongue:

I never noticed any inconsistencies or continuity problems in the theatrical version re: horses. I just assumed that the horse Aragorn rode from Fangorn to Edoras was the same horse he rode from Edoras to the warg battle, and was the same horse that found him by the river. I guess all horses look alike to me.

Delly, an aside regarding helms, I recall an incident from the battle of Hastings in 1066, where the rumour went around the Norman lines that William was dead, and to dispel this he rode up and down his lines with his helmet off.

The point being that, foolhardy though it may be venturing into battle without a hard hat, being identifiable to ones troops may be a benefit to morale.

('Course seeing ones commander topped like an egg may have a rather more negative effect). :slight_smile:

I meant for our purpose, as in we could confuse our main characters with,:eek: god forbid :eek: a normal elf/rohan… not for the purpose of the opposition who wanted them dead.

No, I understood that – I was just offering the film-makers an arguable “out” for having the main actors prance around in melee without protective equipment. :slight_smile:

I just finished watching the extended edition two and a half times (once normal, once w/Jackson & writer commentary, and then with cast commentary until I got pissed off). Here’s my take:

I could readily tell the differences between FOTR’s theatrical release and the extended edition. For Two Towers, the only scene that seemed “new” was the Faramir/Boromir/Denethor flashback. Everything else seemed perfectly natural; this was the way the movie was meant to be seen. And note that I loved the theatrical release and don’t feel it was “chopped up” at all.

I liked Eowyn’s singing, and thought it was perfect for the scene, very real-sounding, very heartfelt, and a great addition to the movie.

John Rhys-Davies comes off sounding like a total pompous ass. (Which is why I only got partway through the cast commentary). In a few scenes, as Aragorn & crew are running through the fields of Rohan and talking to Eomer, Sallah’s going on about how it felt to be running, or what his motivations were for a certain scene. In the special features & director commentary, Jackson had already revealed that that was Rhys-Davies’ double doing all the running and standing, and with a dislocated knee no less. R-D himself was back in a trailer somewhere until he was needed for pick-ups. Busted!

I think the points where I disagree with Jackson et al.'s take on the story all have one thing in common: they make the story more broad than it is in the book. And the book isn’t exactly subtle, either. But the “exorcism” of Theoden, while very dramatic and supernatural and all that, just didn’t impress me as much as the same scene in the book. It was a lot creepier and more interesting for Theoden to realize not that he’d been literally under a spell, but that had been too trusting of his advisor and had led his people into ruin.

Also, I still don’t agree with the change to Faramir, and that remains my biggest beef with the movie. I still understand exactly why the filmmakers chose to do it, and I do think that they do a great job presenting their take on the character and why he makes the choices he does. Dismissing it as “Evil Faramir” is just nonsense – the movie makes it absolutely clear that the character isn’t evil, he’s just different than in the book. But, I still think they could’ve shown Faramir refusing the ring without diminishing the ring’s power. In fact, with the new footage it would’ve been even more dramatic, because he would have been tempted by the ring’s power itself and his desire to prove himself to his father.

I’m even more impressed with the crew and most of the cast behind these movies; it was just a phenomenal amount of effort involved. And even with all the BS getting slung around during the documentaries and commentaries (they’re still movie people after all; you have to expect a level of that), it comes through that this was a “labor of love” for everyone involved. Yes, it had a massive budget, and yes, they wanted to make (and are making) a ton of money from it, but it’s clear that they went above and beyond on just about every level. Even if you’re not a fan of the movies, or not into “fanboy gushing” in general, you just have to acknowledge the work that went into them.

And I’m most impressed with the attitude Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens take to the whole production. It’s abundantly clear that they’ve done their research – I’ve seen it implied several times that they “don’t get” the book, or that they’re doing a dumbed-down Hollywood-ized version of the book because they have no respect for it, both of which are just patently false. I don’t agree with all the changes they made, but I understand why they made them and I totally respect the amount of effort that went into making those decisions.

And that’s the key point: throughout the commentaries and the documentaries and all the special features, they’ve shown a level of respect for the fans (and for the source work) that is impressive. It’s definitely more respect than they get back, as people will go out of their way to call their changes “idiotic” or just make dismissive, insulting posts. But it’s clear from hearing Jackson & Walsh & Boyens talk about the movie that they love the book, they listen very closely to what fans and critics have to say, and will go out of their way to explain why they did things they way they did. Walsh was very candid about the changes to Faramir, and to the addition of elves at Helm’s Deep, saying something along the lines of “if we’d had more time to re-think these things, we might’ve done them differently.” And most of all, they’re having fun with it. They love the book, but they don’t treat it as a Holy Work, and they still realize that they’re just making movies. They point out continuity errors they read about on the Internet, and they make jokes or readily admit that some stuff they just put in because it looked cool.

Of course, what the self-proclaimed “purists” never seem to realize are that: 1) these movies have likely done more to raise interest in the books (incl. Simarillion and The Hobbit) themselves than anything else ever would have, and 2) these movies are nothing more than an interpretation of the book, and it’s sheer arrogance to assume that your interpretation of the book is any more valid than these other fans’ interpretation of it.

And before anyone tries to martyr himself or herself, I’ll point out that no, this isn’t trying to stifle criticism of the movies. I’m critical of the movies myself, as much as I like them. But it is trying to stifle arrogant, self-involved griping and dismissal of the movies, which is just plain rude and insulting. In other words: Internet, stop being so mean.

One more thing, because I haven’t typed nearly enough about this tonight:

A few years ago, before the release of the Fellowship of the Ring, I was working at a videogame company that was trying to secure a development deal for a new LOTR-themed game. After the initial pitch meeting, our lead designer came back all frustrated, complaining that the publishers just didn’t know anything about the Lord of the Rings. “I started by saying that I wanted it to be an action game, where the player plays as Aragorn. They said that they wanted to keep the focus on the main characters instead of restricting you to some side character. Can you believe that?!? They didn’t know who Aragorn was!” After hearing this, the rest of us looked at each other somewhat sheepishly; we didn’t know who Aragorn was, either.

At that point, I hadn’t read the book in over 8 years (I’ve read it twice more since then, btw) and just had a vague memory of the book itself and the Ralph Bakshi and Rankin-Bass movies. All I remembered were Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and Gandalf, that there were elves and dwarves and some Ranger dude who turned out to be cool, that the Ring made you invisible and was very bad, and that the entire last half of the book was nothing but a series of huge battles on horseback. The point being that a) it’s a pretty dense book, 2) not everyone has the same memory of important events and major characters, and c) different interpretations of the same material will emphasize different things. (For example, the animated versions, which emphasize the hobbits.)

Now, what impresses me the most about Jackson’s “travesty” is how faithful the movies are to the books. I’ve said before on these boards that they were going for “feeling” more than anything else, but that’s BS; the movies are full-to-bursting with detail. Previous adaptations just leave you with a vague sense of what’s going on and let you identify with Frodo and Gandalf, but these movies go to (almost) all of the locations, and have now made at least 10 characters firmly and completely locked in the public consciousness. Worrying that this is now “the official version” is just absurd; if anything, it will encourage more people to read the book.

Hey Delly…from County…uhhr… Leitrim!

I recall Gimli being outfitted with Rohir armour gear. I reckon it was done for some ‘fish-out-of-water’ humour. Gimli would be sporting the bestest armour gear in Middle Earth short of a troll hoard (which - even if they’re a couple leagues from Rivendell-Land - always contain super-valuable Gondolin stuffs)

Dwarf-toss, indeed.

Boromir was portrayed as one-dimensional. Worse, Faramir is portrayed as one-dimensional. I’d venture a guess as to the depth Denethor is given, but I’d need a spoiler box, eh?

(constructive criticism/advice: “Dernhelm” ought to have been shown in the ending of tTT.)

Peter Jackson (PJ) has used many anachronistic gags - and he never ceases - with just Gimli we’ve 'ad: ‘dwarf toss’, etc.

Those’d be me nitpicks. For now. Delly or our man munch will set SolGrundy straight. :wink:

I’ve not seen the xTended stuffs yet. I doubt it explains Treebeard as a Tool of Pippin, or the portrayal of Faramir in general, and certainly not Frodo revealing The One to the Nazgul.

(link goes to a page with a drawing of a woman battling Witch King of Angmar. Derryhelm is -not- wearing a Helm!)

(ROTK SPOILER LINK)

http://people.netscape.com/staats/gallery/eowyn_nazgul.html

from what I read in the Newsweek article, ROTK opens with a flashback to Smeagol/Gollum murdering his brother Deagol for the Ring.

You know, this is one scene they really NEED to get right.

I’m going to be very disappointed if they don’t.


Fixed link and quote-- CKDH

Please watch it before continuing conjecture, then. Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh explain their rationale for each of these plot points during their commentary. The extremely condensed versions, as interpreted by me:

  1. Toolbeard – part dramatic tension, mostly developing Pippin’s character. The book can spend time waiting for the Entmoot to build suspense, but this wouldn’t work in a movie that’s intercutting between three different stories. Their biggest incentive was to make the hobbits more proactive in general, and to have a full story where Pippin goes from being naive to understanding what’s truly at stake at the war.

  2. Faramir – this has been explained countless times, even in this thread; I don’t know what to say to anybody who still insists that there’s no rationale for it. Their rationale is that spending so much time focused on the power the ring has over men, and then suddenly showing a man who isn’t even tempted by the ring, lessens the characters of Boromir, Aragorn, and the ring itself. I’ve forgotten why they moved the characters to Osgiliath.

  3. Offering the ring – editing/pacing. Because the Shelob stuff was moved to the third movie, that left TTT without neither a climax or cliffhanger for Sam & Frodo’s story. So they took a scene from later in the book (at Minas Morgul apparently; I don’t remember it myself) and moved it earlier, and to Osgiliath. It was to show the degree to which the ring was now controlling Frodo.

For those scoring at home, I agree with 1, am indifferent to 3, and dislike 2.

:smack:

** Hey, I like it! That’ll be my next user name! It’s Cool!

So if they had left the party in Ithilien, and Frodo and Sam had traveled on towards Minas Morgul, and Frodo had lost it and started running towards the tower (all directly from the book) they would a) have been closer to the original story–thus pleasing fans of the book, b) shown the power the ring had over Frodo and c) avoided the incredibly hokey “sewer that runs under the river” bit. There was nothing I saw in Osgiliath that should have changed Faramir’s mind that couldn’t have happened in Ithilien.

Yeah, but there were more Ent scenes!!!

Did I mention more Ent scenes???

Regarding the “Stay away from the trees!” shout:

You don’t really have to have any special knowledge of Huorns to figure this one out. You just have to be someone who is keeping his head in a battle. Consider what he knows:

  1. There’s a big forest here.
  2. Last time I rode through here, there wasn’t a big forest here.
  3. We’ve already routed the orcs.

Conclusion:

Why mess with victory? Let’s not follow the orcs into that mysteriously appearing forest.
On a side note, it appears I’m in the minority for liking Eowyn’s chant at the funeral. Seemed very heartfelt to me.

OK, what bugged me tremendously how the characters can manage to have conversations and cradle dying elves in their arms while a wild hand-to-hand battle is going on around them.

So, let’s see, there’s Balrogs, giant trolls, Wyverns or dragons, talking trees, and immortal elves…

and the problem you have BELIEVING is an emotional scene in the middle of a battle?

Wow, I sure don’t want to get inside your mind!

Gangster Octopus actually that’s very consistent with the books. After all, in one of the major battles of ROTK

Aragorn and Eomer run into each other and have themselves a chat in the middle of the battlefield:
*At length Eomer and Aragorn met in the midst of battle and they leaned on their swords and looked on one another and were glad. * etc etc etc.

I very much agree with SolGrundy’s take on the films. Jackson et al. approach the material with respect and do the best they can to translate the source material to the screen. They are not trying to represent scripture; they are doing what they can to make an entertaining film that honors Tolkien’s story without violating its spirit. You can debate whether or not they accomplished it, and you can point to half a dozen moments in the movies so far that just plain don’t work (e.g., FOTR’s “dark queen” thing, or TTT’s “snowboarding elf” shot) but you cannot deny the intent. That’s the big lesson that other filmmakers should take away, and that demonstrates the huge difference in approach between what Jackson et al. are doing and what Hollywood usually does.

In short: Imagine the colossal disaster these movies would have been if Michael Bay or Richard Donner or Joel Schumacher or Tony Scott or Simon West or one of those other studio guys had directed them.

Dunno if I’m the first to do this, but I read through all fifteen minutes of the “fan club” credit scroll that ends the TTT Extended Edition DVD, and I was amazed to see many of the cast members and filmmakers on the list. I remember specifically Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan (Pippin and Merry), Mark Ordesky (executive producer), and a bunch of Mortensens. That as much as anything, I believe, speaks to the commitment and involvement of the people behind the movie.