LHOD could you please respond to this post:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18463238&postcount=275
It wasn’t directed at you but maybe you could give your opinion.
There’s a difference being missed here, and also with the comparison to white hoods. It is safe to say that a white person wearing a white hood or using “nigger” is racist because there is no other reason for the hood or the use of the word. With the flag, which I don’t really care about one way or the other, a racist stance is ONE reason the flag is and has been flown, but it is not the only one. I’m Yankee who lived in the south for six years, and I see that the south is different. For instance, “southern hospitality” is really a thing. There is also a politeness one finds in the south. It was nice to experience and and southerners take great pride in that. Politically, there is the fact that the south was fighting for self determination, i.e., state’s rights. The balance between a strong federal government and those rights is something we grapple with even today. For many people, I’d say most, who like the flag, those are the the things that it borings to mind. Not slavery, an institution that no living southerner has experienced. It’s just not in their mindset. I think the that someone flies the flag is a fan of slavery is absurd. It’s as atavistic as someone who likes Nantucket wanting to bring back whale oil as a fuel source.
I also accept that some people genuinely see the flag and the first thing that comes to mind is racism and slavery. I accept that the flag is a shitty symbol for them to see. But as far as that goes, two things.
One is that I don’t think any of us have the right to not be offended. If a person can’t see the flag being flown and accept that it probably—very probably—is being flown for the non-racist reasons I mentioned above, sorry. Like I said, none of us has the right to be protected from all the things that might protect us.
The other thing is that by people being so touchy about the flag they give the flag—the very symbol that they hate—great power. The analogy I use is the burning of the American flag. I don’t want to see it burned. But I do not want to make burring it against the law, for if it was, the act of burning the flag would immediately be a MUCH bigger deal, inadvertently giving MORE power to the the assholes who will burn it anyway.
Like I said, I have no particular affection for the southern flag. It wouldn’t bother me for a second if it didn’t exist. What does bother me is the notion that because some people read offense into it—and INSIST that racism or assholism are the only reasons one would want to fly it—that they can dictate what the flag means. Period. And they can then insist that they be protected against being offended. To that, this northern says, “Fuck that.” Or as I might have put it as a son of the south, "I shall give thoughts like that, wrongheaded that they are, no quarter. Do you grasp my position and degree of conviction, SIR?!
I left this thread here, a while, on the grounds that there might be a debate. Instead, all I see are posters making sweeping generalizations about people they don’t even know and choosing to be insulted over sweeping generalizations made by other posters.
Go fight in The BBQ Pit.
[ /Moderating ]
Honestly, no. I think this feeds into the false and distracting narrative that Smartass is pushing. I have no particular expertise in discussing whether small-town southerners are dumber or more racist or more conformist or whatever than anyone else–and that has nothing to do with what I’m arguing.
What I’m arguing is that, given that we learn about folks from the symbols they choose, the choice of a confederate flag tells us one of a few things about a person. I don’t care whether the person waving that flag is a southerner or a northerner or a Moldovan. Reasons for choosing that symbol generally fall into the categories I described earlier.
Obviously you can do what you’d like, but I’d appreciate it if you took this spat about whatever this is about (something like small-town southerners being more racist, I dunno) to its own thread.
Not addressing the moderating decision, but this is a ridiculous thing to criticize. All the goddamned time we make sweeping generalizations about people we don’t know, based on similarities in the actions they perform. Folks who run triathlons care a great deal about exercise. Folks who run scams on the elderly are assholes. Folks who have 30 cats living in their house like cats.
Not only is there nothing wrong with making generalizations about people based on what they do, a person who’s unable to do that is (wait for the generalization) dumb.
The question is not whether making generalizations based on commonly-performed actions is wrong–of course it’s not–but whether any particular generalization is wrong.
You are the one who claimed to “know all about the south”. I would of appreciated you just answering the question instead of giving me a lecture on derailing your thread. I’m actually trying to learn something here. My feeling is small southern towns are overwhelmingly racist but if I am wrong I will gladly change my opinion.
We’ll have to agree to disagree at this point. I still think you need to be in the environment and ACTUALLY talk and get to know people to learn what motivates them instead of basing it on prejudice. I could make the statement that I think those who advocate liberalism are really motivated by keeping people ignorant and dependent in order to get votes for political power. I could wholeheartedly believe it. Reality wouldn’t change based on my belief. I’d just be deluded.
I don’t think we should honor those people. The time to have dealt with that properly has past. Now the best thing to do is let sleeping dogs lie and let the current progression of civility continue. Why pick an unnecessary fight? I don’t think it’s motivated by the most noble reasons, tbh.
Are you in favor of razing the memorials and renaming all the counties, cities, and streets?
Slavery, which existed throughout history is and was a very terrible social institution. Not many human activities are worse. I suppose murder and genocide top slavery. It’s unfortunate it took as long as it did to mostly eradicate and for that we need to thank the UK for the heavy lifting they did on that job.
It would have been nice if more effort would have been made in the past to enforce civil rights and the law. It would have been nice if Jim Crow never took hold. However, it did.
I do think that private corporations not carrying the product will make something of an impact. Not sure if it will be a good or bad impact though.
I fucking well made no claim to know “all about the south,” and I’ll thank you not to put words in my mouth like that in the future.
As for your not wanting a lecture, how about this deal: don’t participate in derailing threads in the future, and I promise not to lecture you about it.
How about this deal: you quit being a jerk for no reason
Yes
That’s not an apple to apple comparison. The reason being people legitimately, in the present US, display the Confederate flag for reasons other than what is being offered as the only possible reasons. Whereas, if one claims to be a Nazi it’s almost always for unpleasant reasons or looking for allies in jail. Which alludes to the original post. The white hood can’t legitimately be claimed as a symbol of Southern heritage minus the hate and terror because aside from pranks or costumes it’s ALWAYS been used that way.
I doubt that every happens, nor should it.
I doubt it will happen any time soon
But it should
Sure. At the very least we could start with this piece of shit. Or do you think he’s worthy of respect and remembrance?
No it isn’t racist. Racist is based upon the belief that there are superior races. Not an action. I can be helpful and kind and be racist. I can use words that are typically used as racial slurs and fly a flag that was favored by slavers and believe that race is a social construct and that every body should be judged strictly on their individual merits.
Actions and belief systems are two separate concepts and should be treated as such instead of deliberately commingled in order to obfuscate. This seems like a simple thing so I am confused by the difficulties with understanding.
Good post. And in some ways it almost looks like some are looking to be offended and spoiling for a fight.
Read the exchange again. It’s not a comparison at all. Smartass just literally said he wouldn’t judge someone just because they’re a Nazi.
No his post war activities are not respectable at all. I would not advocate changing stuff named after him either. Slippery slope would be nasty in this case, and let me preempt anyone who’s gonna hollar “slippery slope fallacy!!!.” Slippery slope is, in general, legitimate and in this case as this thread and actions in real life on this very subject have shown accurate.
Well you can take concept of giving the benefit of a doubt a bit too far, lol. Nazi or Communist is where I’d draw my line. Though, for many I don’t think Communist has the negative connotation as it should so I’d probably be a bit more generous with my estimation of the character of a self-avowed Communist.
Exactly
Where, precisely, do you think think it is going to lead???
Good question. In my lifetime, probably some vandalism of monuments and those who live in the area reacting to that. I don’t see much if any name change outside of maybe a one or two N.B. Forrest areas, such as the school in Jacksonville.
Though I am inclined to watch Wal-Mart. If Wal-Mart backtracks in 6 months, than this probably blows over. If not we might see more and more Confederate era stuff go.
In other words, I am not really sure!