But sterra that’s only when it right to do so. how is lieing sacrificing yourself? offering yourself in exchange would be sacrificing yourself…
again it all boils down to the fact that Lying is wrong no matter what the circumstance… do u guys have any idea what perfect truth is?
I beg to differ… I know what i think is right. it’s up to you to prove otherwise
I don’t think anybody’s disagreeing that lying is wrong… but the scenario in the OP does not admit a “right” answer; allowing other people to be killed for your beliefs is also wrong. The question, then, is “In this situation, which wrong choice would you take?” - my answer’s already on record, and I see no reason to change my mind.
Then why did God reward Jephthah and honour his agreement? That’s a clear cut example of not just allowing someone to be killed but actually killing them for your beliefs. SUrely if this was wrong God would have refused both the sacrifice and the original bargain.
Uhh… not being a Biblical literalist, I read the story of Jephthah as a cautionary tale. And it’s clearly not suggested that Jephthah’s sacrifice of his daughter is in any way a good act - it’s something he has to do, to keep his (rash) oath. Jephthah is, in fact, in a similar scenario to that described in the OP; either he breaks his vow to God, or he kills his daughter. (And I think he makes the wrong decision.)
Also, as a Christian, I have a different set of obligations from an Old Testament Jew. (Which is not to suggest that Jews think it’s all right to kill close family members!) To my mind, killing people is inconsistent with Christ’s commandment to “love thy neighbour as thyself”. (It may also be inconsistent with the Old Testament “Thou shalt not kill”, but the translation of that has been debated. Shows you the bind Jephthah is in, though - he breaks either “Thou shalt not kill” or “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. As with the OP, he has no right answers. And the moral of the story is, don’t make rash promises.)
I find it hard to believe that you are a christian Steve and still find it OK to denounce God to save someone…
Do you know what absolute perfect truth is?
there is a verse in the bible that says something like this: “all things work out for the good of those who love him” Meaning that if you are a christian things will ALWAYS work out in the end.
I asked my wife this question as we walked home last night, and her answer surprised me (she is a fairly fundamental, black-and-white Christian, while I am more liberal and shades-of-grey):
Basically, she said that it would depend on which member of the family it was. If it were someone like me who she believed was going to Heaven[sup]TM[/sup], then she would rather keep her promise to God, because she knows (sic - read believes) that this life is not the end of our relationship and that we will be re-united one day… However, if it were someone for whom she was unsure of their faith, or knew that they were not a believer, then she would do whatever it took to prolong their life so that they might be given a chance to come to faith…
Not too sure how that made me feel…
One point she did make (which I wholeheartedly agree with) is that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven, no deed that can separate us from God’s love once we are commited to Him and (more importantly) He to us - see Romans Ch 8. IOW, whatever choice is made by the believer, the chance of reconciliation with God exists afterwards. It is not as if the choice we make brands us for the rest of eternity.
On a related point, I remember reading of a case of an Australian (I think) prisoner who was serving a life sentance (without parole) and one day turned on a fellow inmate and beat him to death in cold blood and for no apparant reason. When they asked him why, he replied that he was fed up with life and wanted to die, but believed that suicide was wrong/sinful (Catholic upbringing IIRC) so decided to murder someone because then he would have the chance to repent and recieve absolution before he was executed. Not sure how God would deal with that kind of reasoning…
Gp
Your sig is currently “Jesus Is Lord./ Peace.” Perhaps you should replace it with Jesus is Lord. / Pillage, betrayal, murder, genocide… whatever". I understand you feel that a disavowal of your faith is a pretty important departure - that’s the premise of this thread. But does your faith remove moral content from any choice you might make? Might not that stance make you dangerous - an agent of evil even - if you as a fallible mortal misunderstand god’s plan?
Yes, but here is where the scenario gets worse. If you renounce your faith under threat of harm to your family and are put to death immediately, before you have a chance to repent and ask forgiveness, what happens to your soul?
Ah, but renouncing God and still being a good person does not automatically guarantee you entrance into heaven, according to Scripture.
Again, I’m trying to find an answer that is based in Scripture. I simply can’t trust the thought that “Well, I can’t believe that God would condemn someone to hell for trying to save his family.” Because that is applying one’s own prejudices to one’s concept of God. Arguably, this type of thinking could be said to be the cause of all the problems that “People of the Book”, followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, have caused through history.
It’s really not far from saying
“I can’t believe that God would allow those homosexuals to live.”
or
“I can’t believe God would allow the infidel to occupy the Holy Land.”
or
“I can’t believe God would condemn me for crashing this plane into a building.”
All these things are people trying to jam God into a preconceived concept. Rather than being led by Scripture, they tailor Scripture to fit into whatever answer they already have. This leads to self-righteousness, and where-self-righteousness exists, righteousness with God cannot, because the desires of the self are put before the desires of God.
And that is really all I’m trying to find. What are God’s desires of me, should I find myself in this situation?
You may have hit on something there, Sterra.
The Gospel says, (paraphrasing) “Greater love has no man, than that he lays down his life for another.”
The sacrifice you refer to would not be the laying down of one’s life, but rather sacrificing one’s eternal soul. A truly great sacrifice, indeed.
**Tygr wrote:
Again, I’m trying to find an answer that is based in Scripture. I simply can’t trust the thought that “Well, I can’t believe that God would condemn someone to hell for trying to save his family.” Because that is applying one’s own prejudices to one’s concept of God. Arguably, this type of thinking could be said to be the cause of all the problems that “People of the Book”, followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, have caused through history.
It’s really not far from saying “I can’t believe that God would allow those homosexuals to live.”
or
“I can’t believe God would allow the infidel to occupy the Holy Land.”
or
“I can’t believe God would condemn me for crashing this plane into a building.”
All these things are people trying to jam God into a preconceived concept. Rather than being led by Scripture, they tailor Scripture to fit into whatever answer they already have. This leads to self-righteousness, and where-self-righteousness exists, righteousness with God cannot, because the desires of the self are put before the desires of God.
And that is really all I’m trying to find. What are God’s desires of me, should I find myself in this situation?**
I’d like to offer a recent experience of mine and a conclusion I drew from it as an answer to this question.
A couple weeks ago, I attend Shabbat services at a local Reformed Temple with a good friend of mine. I was a bit wary of the whole thing and in the middle of the service, I was really struck by the strangeness of it all; I’ve avowedly Wiccan, yet here I was attending services offered to the One God, ole YHWH Himself. I kept expecting someone to turn around and point fingers and declare there’s in infidel in the Temple or lightning to pierce the roof and strike me down. Of course, nothing like that happened. What did occur was a warm, gratifying service where I was heartily welcomed by all the attendees. I offered “Shabbat Shalom” to those around me as they offered it in return.
I came to the realization that as long as the worship is sincere & respectful, the Gods don’t really care too much about the whole matter. Sincerity and respect, that’s what counts.
What about all the commandments and rules in the Torah? Well, those were all written a long time ago and reflect the understanding of those people in that age and in that type of society. I live in a very different time and am a very different person from those people. Of course, if I were to start attending services on a more regular basis, I think there’d be some conflict. I’d start questioning which path would be best for me. But that’s not going to happen, I’m happy with what I practice now and have no wish to convert.
I’m sure the Othrodox Jews on the board would disagree with me and they’re certainly free to do so. Out of respect to them, I’ll not attend services with them. 
The point of all this is; don’t get caught up in the rules. You’ll miss seeing the forest for all the trees.
I’m no bible scholar, but the Abraham scenario is vastly different… God told Abraham to kill his son. The OP’s situation is different.