aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagaaaaaain it’s not my idea he fired twice, it’s a series of quotes i provided. i read it. i didn’t think it up.
and i doooooon’t caaaaaaaaaare. duder hadn’t “ever heard of this” so i pointed it out.
but. for the record, they said he RELOADED THE MAGAZINE so there were no bullets missing.
if you are going to use that as proof, technically he fired no bullets. which truly is magic.
if you want to base it solely on how many were in-or-missing from the magazine, since he reloaded, and the gut was not taken in for testing, the answer remains ???
if you want to base it on the article outlining how poorly the police investigated, and use the police at their word, all you have to do is explain why anyone should trust them?
let me make something clear, so you can drop it: i listened to the actual calls, and i heard 1 shot. and she said 1 shot when dispatch asks.
my personal opinion is zimmerman probably fired once, if i have to decide based on that one call. the two lawyers who claim to hear two shots heard one of 8 tapes, of which i have not heard.
there are a lot of corroborating quotes that suggest two shots were fired.
i pointed this out a page back–until more data is released, we can’t know–
but i only. pointed it out. for the guy who said he’d never heard of it.
If there were more than one shot fired, with screams for help in between those shots , where are the witnesses that are describing it that way? The media has been interviewing anyone they could get to talk to them. Where are they.
The lady on the phone with 40 seconds of screaming doesn’t mention hearing any shots until we hear it in the audio, and then it’s over. That would mean the first shot would have been more than 40 seconds earlier? don’t you think she would have heard it and mentioned it, or we’d have several reports to that effect. Two other witnesses say they saw two men struggling and then heard a shot, and the struggle was over. Why didn’t they hear another shot?
Since there were no screams after the shot, your claim that Trayvon screamed “as hot bullets (note plural) enter him” was just a fantasy? If so, seek help - that’s a pretty sick fantasy.
You really have never handled a handgun, have you? That’s fairly standard practice - you chamber a bullet, then reload the magazine so you carry the magazine capacity + 1
i live in modern america, where–of all things i dont need to be concerned about–is being sure my gun has the ABSOLUTE CAPACITY OF BULLETS.
i, unlike you, zimmerman, and a bunch of others on here, have no intention or justification to go around shooting some poor sap…the maximum possible amount of times the gun will allow, apparently.
the fact you support zims so vehemently, and what you just said here is rather telling on what your agenda could be…
Look, Terr, I really thought I made it painfully clear that I do not have a position on the number of shots fired. I made no affirmative statements of opinion or fact on the matter, so I don’t see how you can act like you proved me wrong about anything. I can’t be wrong on something I have made no claims about. All I was trying to do was illustrate that your condescending “I’m right, you’re wrong, so nananana” post about the issue didn’t actually prove what you were so certain it proved. I’m not saying the dude is right or wrong, just that you aren’t as right as you seem to think, and as your arrogant tone seems to indicate. Again, just because there is one bullet wound in the victim, it does not automatically prove that the gun that caused that wound could only have been fired once. It is possible for a shot to miss its mark, or for a gun to go off during struggle in a harmless direction. Do you really believe otherwise?
And yet you were wrong about what I “was so certain it proved”. As I showed you. Repeatedly. That it was in response to the poster claiming that multiple bullets “entered his [Martin’s] body”.
Definitely not. Yet the reports (cited upthread) do say only one bullet from Zimmerman’s gun was used. It is hard to do multiple shots with one bullet.
Would it be too much to ask that you pick a position, and then try to defend it (or change it if you are convinced otherwise)?
If there is one bullet wound in the victim, one shell casing on the scene, and one bullet missing from the gun recovered from the shooter, that does rather tend to establish that only one shot was fired. If Zimmerman missed, or the gun went off in the struggle without hitting anyone, how did his gun fill itself back up?
how can ANY of us pick a position on the details of a case that has be 1. botched beyond debate and has 2. no official details available?
it’s speculation, hearsay and conflicting reporting depending on when or where you look.
my official stance is that the cops really, really failed. hard. and that most of what they did/say can be objected to, and that the report on the heading of the police report is dead-accurate when it calls the death unwarranted.
how many shots were fired? in a single article i just cited, they report a range of answers to that question. you provide a cite tearing apart the police in every methodology of how they handled it, stated in no terms whatsoever how many shots were fired, but you want to latch on to the quote “recovered one casing” and irrefutable proof zimmerman fired once.
to what end?
…how does it support the over-all merit of zimmerman’s claim if he fired once or twice?
the only reason “two shots” was brought into this conversation was to outline multiple witness testimony that the final screams were “that of a child,” “in pain,” “being shot,” “dying” etc.
this is not my opinion, it’s just a relaying of quotes for the sake of a poster who claimed to be ignorant anything like that even existed.
if you want to stand by the “shell casing” line as total proof as to the amount of shots fired, ignoring the incompetence of the investigation, ignoring the testimony/911 tapes and those who claim they heard two shots–ok.
i’ve pointed out numerously it’s moot and arbitrary to the over-all dynamic of the case. it doesn’t have any bearing on justification on zimmerman’s behalf. it doesn’t make trayvon any more alive.
but the quotes are there, they exist, and the debate is what it is. all any of us can do is digest all this conflicting data from “leaked” reports and botched investigations…
wow, I really thought I was clear, but I’ll try again. The entirety of my point, such as it is, can be illustrated with this:
one bullet wound in the victim, does not prove that only one shot was fired.
That’s it, that’s all I said. It was in response to Terr doing the touchdown dance and spiking the ball over quoting that the body had one bullet wound. As if that fact alone proved it. I even said that other evidence may show that one shot was fired, as appears to be the case, but simply the fact that there is one wound in the victim is not sufficient to disprove the possibility that more shots may have been fired. Somehow from that simple statement you guys have somehow assigned everything said by every poster you disagree with in this thread to me. Like I have to answer for everything said by everyone else you guys are fighting with here.
this is the worst, most convoluted, ugly thread because of stuff like this. you can’t just say a thing and have it replied to and move the conversation forward. you have to re-iterate and re-post things dozens of times and the whole thing gets stuck in the quagmire of rhetoric because of (some) people just either WON’T accept what you are saying or simply cannot grasp the intent or point.
So you have no position on the innocence or otherwise of Zimmerman on the night in question?
So you agree with a conclusion based on details of whose accuracy you cannot be sure. Okay.
If any witnesses are testifying that two or more shots were fired, their testimony is suspect because it is contradicted by the circumstances. As I said before, if Zimmerman fired two shots, why was only one shot missing from his gun? And if a witness believes that Zimmerman is guilty of murder because he shot Martin once, chased him down, and shot him again, that belief is untenable.
Yes, it does, and no, it isn’t moot. If people are going to construct a scenario that says Zimmerman is guilty because he shot Martin once, then hunted him down and shot him again, and that Martin was screaming for help because Zimmerman shot him, and you can show that only one shot was fired and it killed Martin almost at once, then that scenario of guilt cannot be true. So an honest examiner would drop that scenario and try to come up with another that fits the facts.
And if it turns out that the only scenario that comes up is one that fits what Zimmerman says, Zimmerman walks, and rightly so.
[QUOTE=Shodan]
So you have no position on the innocence or otherwise of Zimmerman on the night in question?
[/QUOTE]
are you seriously going to jump into a conversation on the 7th page and make people re-iterate their previous seven pages of thoughts, posts and opinions?
i’ve made it clear how i feel on this matter. read the freakin’ thread.
the details are inaccurate because it has been determined the officers botched the investigation. while we can debate such details in nuances, what has been made clear is THE COPS. BOTCHED. THIS CASE. the chief was voted/stepped down. the case has been turned over to the FBI. the “conclusion” that the cops botched the case isn’t based on the details of the case, but the facts we know about their lack of thorough investigation.
…the circumstances WE DON’T KNOW. you’ve chosen to find them “suspect” because you’ve presupposed zimmerman’s right to kill an unarmed minor, and so far, anything that contradicts this preposition you’ve taken is being dismissed by you.
this is a testament to your character.
the fact you cite ridiculing articles, tearing down the cop’s investigation and want to use parts of that investigation as “proof” for what you believe shows you are grasping at straws.
why do you need zimmerman to be absolved so badly…?
there’s literally no proof this is the case. all you have a is a small quote about finding a single shell casing. that’s hardly concrete proof of anything whatsoever.
there’s no proof the ‘one shell casing’ thing is even accurate. no official report has been made public. leaked police reports from incompetent cops isn’t really the leg i’d pick to stand on if i were looking for support…
you just built a nice little strawman out of thin air.
you two have fun playing together. hey–maybe you can shoot at him!
find one quote, from anyone, ever, that shows any witness claiming they saw zimmerman shoot martin, running away, chase him down, and shoot more.
this is just some absolutely made up bullshit you just came up with from nothing.
the “two shots” scenario was based on hearing cries, a shot–louder cries, another shot, no cries. at no point does anyone–AT ALL–suggest there was some foot chase and whatever other fantasy you have going on there.
cough strawman
it IS moot because how many shots he fired doesn’t prove his guilt nor his innocence. something on the tapes, in the calls apparently comes off sounding like a second shot.
something, at the scene, to at least some of the witnesses, sounded like a second shot.
what it was, who knows. what it means, who knows. but it wasn’t fabricated (by me) or drawn from thin air (by them). while it can be a mistake, it’s not some malicious fabrication.
it’s unnecessary, because (to correct your fabrication) the scenario, by zimmerman’s account, is:
zimmerman chased down a minor after being advised not to, accosted him, thereby either directly or circumstantially starting a physical altercation, which he found himself losing, so he killed an law-abiding, unarmed minor.
how many times he shot is moot because ^that all still happened.
Well, no, I don’t think this is a given yet. It might prove to be or it might not. At this point no one really knows officially what the police did and didn’t do.
…but we know it was handled so poorly the county comity voted no confidence for the police chief in charge, and he has since stepped down. and we know that it has been asked–and granted that the FBI take over to ensure a proper investigation will be made (based on the doubt Sanford could accomplish this).
…and there’s lists of things they’ve failed to do that are standard procedure, as outlined in the (numerous) cites above.
we know a lot more about what they did and didn’t do.
both officer’s reports are attached as scans above. the “one shell casing” cite is particularly damning in their methodology and outlines the procedural failures and neglected protocol.
if it’s not a “given,” there’s a HEAP of mounting evidence…
Actually, other than the no confidence vote, we really don’t know what the police did or did not do. I’m actually pleased with the refusal to make official comments. I understand that the position is that this investigation and subsequent official refusal to provide information is regarded as something that was forced on the PD because of public outcry, but we’ll see how it shakes out.
It’s still entirely possible that today’s decision to not bring this to the grand jury will be the end of this absent civil drama. Even if criminal charges are filed we will likely have an opportunity to see how the investigation was handled although I would hope all that information remains sealed so as not to taint a jury pool if the matter progresses.