The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza

[iiandyiiii]

@ZPG_Zealot

In my experience because a certain type of male entitlement and misogyny refusals frequently result in awkward public scenes, far more discomforting than a mild question and not without drawing unwanted attention to the woman. In situations where public touching is involved it is always best to err on the side of caution and not touch or imply touching. A quick question might momentarily annoy some women though honestly never anywhere in the world I have been have I ever encountered a woman that found it bad that a man believed her consent was necessary. Creating a scene, or worse forcing contact on a woman who believes it is wrong could have intensely negative consequences for her. You are placing her in a position where she has to choose between a job necessary to support herself and her family and whoring her body out, breaking her marriage vows, etc.

Right – I would never force touching/contact on anyone, or create a scene. A cautious, slow hand-extension, not getting close or invading anyone’s personal space, would seem to me to eliminate any concern about discomfiting/insulting women who feel that anything short of treating them just like men is offensive, while also allowing any women who would prefer not to shake hands to easily avoid doing so. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to shake hands, but there’s also nothing wrong with wanting to be treated literally exactly the same as men in a business environment. The only thing wrong, in my opinion, is forcing anything – forcing touching is entirely wrong, and it’s also wrong to force others to accept what they see as insult and offense just because someone else might be offended by a non-forced-touching gesture.

Since there is literally no handshake routine that can be guaranteed to not offend, insult, or discomfit everyone, then I try and pick the strategy that will result in the lowest likelihood of causing offense, insult, or discomfort.

The concerns you have expressed have to do with forced touching – an entirely reasonable concern. So I certainly want to take your concerns (and those of other women with similar concerns) into account. But I also have to take into account the concerns of women who feel differently – and based on conversations I’ve had, there are many more women in my part of the country who are offended/insulted/discomfited by asking, or not offering a handshake, then by a cautious, non-forced handshake offer.

So isn’t my approach reasonable? I’m not forcing anyone to touch – not even close. I don’t put my hand inches from anyone’s body – I’ll extend it just a little past my own body, and not into anyone’s space. This allows women who are not comfortable with handshakes to very easily decline, as well as allowing women who are comfortable with them and prefer them to accept and shake my hand.

If I lived and worked somewhere in which I had reason to believe that there were a large number of women who shared your feelings, and a lot fewer who have the feelings of the women I’ve spoken to, then I think the best approach might be different. But here, where I live, based on the evidence I’ve gathered through conversations with women, isn’t my approach a reasonable way to minimize the chance of causing any offense, insult, or discomfort?

[JRDelirious]

@ZPG_Zealot

You are placing her in a position where she has to choose between a job necessary to support herself and her family and whoring her body out, breaking her marriage vows, etc.

Damn, that’s some utterly delusional crap there.

[Skywatcher]

@ZPG_Zealot

In my years of working with battered women I have seen some evil cases. It doesn’t excuse the abuser of his crimes, but people should consider how their actions may affect other people.

Or maybe you just have some very weird worries.

[Velocity]

@ZPG_Zealot

In my experience because a certain type of male entitlement and misogyny refusals frequently result in awkward public scenes, far more discomforting than a mild question and not without drawing unwanted attention to the woman. In situations where public touching is involved it is always best to err on the side of caution and not touch or imply touching. A quick question might momentarily annoy some women though honestly never anywhere in the world I have been have I ever encountered a woman that found it bad that a man believed her consent was necessary. Creating a scene, or worse forcing contact on a woman who believes it is wrong could have intensely negative consequences for her. You are placing her in a position where she has to choose between a job necessary to support herself and her family and whoring her body out, breaking her marriage vows, etc.

… from a handshake?

In the West?

If we were talking ISIS-held territory, I might believe you.

[Ukulele_Ike]

@ZPG_Zealot

…hell yes, I’ll call them whores and a lot worse (because I honestly don’t find whore that insulting a term , it just means a woman accepts money for sex.)

Damn straight! The user is the arbiter of the true meaning of any word, and to hell with the semantic prejudices of the audience!

I’m gonna go right down to the street and call the first dozen New York City women I run into “whores!”

(Twelve hellacious thrashings later…)

[Guinastasia]

@Ukulele_Ike

Damn straight! The user is the arbiter of the true meaning of any word, and to hell with the semantic prejudices of the audience!

I’m gonna go right down to the street and call the first dozen New York City women I run into “whores!”

(Twelve hellacious thrashings later…)

Well, did you ask them if they MINDED if you called them a whore first?

[raventhief]

@Guinastasia

Well, did you ask them if they MINDED if you called them a whore first?

Don’t be silly! Don’t you know that ZPG’s mores and cultural values are the only ones that should be respected? To hell with women who see it as non-offensive, or even a mark of equality, her values trump ours!

[Captain_Amazing]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Not ever? Everything that someone says offends them is A-OK with you? :dubious:

Yes? I can’t control what somebody else is offended by, and I can’t stop people from being offended by what they want. It doesn’t mean I’m necessarily going to stop doing the thing they think is offensive. But I’m not going to wear myself out being bothered that they’re offended by something I’m not. Why? Does that offend you?

[wonky]

@ZPG_Zealot

Not particular, but we all work with people we don’t like or think are idiots at some point in our careers. I rather think that is a part of the human experience. What angers me intensely and where I think many of these women are gender traitors is their unwillingness to support women who don’t want to casually touch men. Simple put call when they call me a prude, when they try to put my job in jeopardy because I won’t imitate their casual attitude about sex and body integrity, hell yes, I’ll call them whores and a lot worse (because I honestly don’t find whore that insulting a term , it just means a woman accepts money for sex.)

What has to happen for someone to support you? Because I support your right not to touch or be touched by anyone you don’t want to be touched by, generally. (No need to pursue the rare exceptions.)

It’s your body; you should get to decide what happens to it. Full agreement there.

Is that what you are asking for in support? If so, you have it from me.

[Peremensoe]

@ZPG_Zealot

What angers me intensely and where I think many of these women are gender traitors is their unwillingness to support women who don’t want to casually touch men.

So you’re saying women should support other women’s choices about sex and bodily integrity?

[raventhief]

@ZPG_Zealot

We have a detailed policy against sexual harassment that forbids implied aggression or “guilting” someone into physical contact though it doesn’t get more explicit than that and such matters are usually decided on a case by case basis. It does state that repeated attempts at physical contact with another person who has already said no is a form harassment and grounds for termination.

What does the detailed policy say about calling your female coworkers prostitutes and male coworkers rapists?

[Enola_Gay]

@ZPG_Zealot

Trying not to hijack from the subject matter. But infanticide has been the alternative for millennium for women unable to get abortions or families without access to birth control trying to limit the number of children. In all the cases involved, it was advocated as the method of last resort only when all legal channels such as abortion were blocked by someone else. Seriously, what do you expect someone to do. Just accept being used as breeder for their enemies (because obviously someone trying to force another into being a parent should be classed as an enemy)?

If a mother strangles her baby with her bare hands, in order to ‘limit the number of children’ & refuse to allow her enemies to use her as a breeder…is she guilty of rape and murder? What if she strangles the child while wearing gloves…just murder?

[Monty]

I am now curious about ZPGZ’S palm reading gig. Is she doing this as entertainment or is she telling her client that it’s a legitimate and accurate thing?

[Peremensoe]

@Monty

I am now curious about ZPGZ’S palm reading gig.

Does she accept money for this… manual contact?

[Ukulele_Ike]

@Monty

I am now curious about ZPGZ’S palm reading gig. Is she doing this as entertainment or is she telling her client that it’s a legitimate and accurate thing?

I honestly don’t find “palm reader” all that insulting a term; it just means a person accepts money for committing fraud.

[Guinastasia]

@Ukulele_Ike

I honestly don’t find “palm reader” all that insulting a term; it just means a person accepts money for committing fraud.

In this case, I think it’s peeping.

[Chimera]

@Monty

I am now curious about ZPGZ’S palm reading gig. Is she doing this as entertainment or is she telling her client that it’s a legitimate and accurate thing?

@Peremensoe

Does she accept money for this… manual contact?

Someone should tell her clients that for her, it is a sexual experience and akin to rape when unwanted. They might have second thoughts about allowing someone to touch their hands when that person may suddenly accuse them of sexual assault if they touch her hands while she’s touching theirs.

[octopus]

@iiandyiiii

Right – I would never force touching/contact on anyone, or create a scene. A cautious, slow hand-extension, not getting close or invading anyone’s personal space, would seem to me to eliminate any concern about discomfiting/insulting women who feel that anything short of treating them just like men is offensive, while also allowing any women who would prefer not to shake hands to easily avoid doing so. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to shake hands, but there’s also nothing wrong with wanting to be treated literally exactly the same as men in a business environment. The only thing wrong, in my opinion, is forcing anything – forcing touching is entirely wrong, and it’s also wrong to force others to accept what they see as insult and offense just because someone else might be offended by a non-forced-touching gesture.

Since there is literally no handshake routine that can be guaranteed to not offend, insult, or discomfit everyone, then I try and pick the strategy that will result in the lowest likelihood of causing offense, insult, or discomfort.

The concerns you have expressed have to do with forced touching – an entirely reasonable concern. So I certainly want to take your concerns (and those of other women with similar concerns) into account. But I also have to take into account the concerns of women who feel differently – and based on conversations I’ve had, there are many more women in my part of the country who are offended/insulted/discomfited by asking, or not offering a handshake, then by a cautious, non-forced handshake offer.

So isn’t my approach reasonable? I’m not forcing anyone to touch – not even close. I don’t put my hand inches from anyone’s body – I’ll extend it just a little past my own body, and not into anyone’s space. This allows women who are not comfortable with handshakes to very easily decline, as well as allowing women who are comfortable with them and prefer them to accept and shake my hand.

If I lived and worked somewhere in which I had reason to believe that there were a large number of women who shared your feelings, and a lot fewer who have the feelings of the women I’ve spoken to, then I think the best approach might be different. But here, where I live, based on the evidence I’ve gathered through conversations with women, isn’t my approach a reasonable way to minimize the chance of causing any offense, insult, or discomfort?

They could take a cue from Sweden and wear anti-rape bracelets.

[Ukulele_Ike]

@Chimera

Someone should tell her clients that for her, it is a sexual experience and akin to rape when unwanted. They might have second thoughts about allowing someone to touch their hands when that person may suddenly accuse them of sexual assault if they touch her hands while she’s touching theirs.

Nah, she uses her “alchemy tools” to avoid the Male Touch.

I’m picturing those steel gynecological surgery things the Jeremy Irons twins invented in Dead Ringers.

[kaylasdad99]

@iiandyiiii

And just like how “whore” is not such an insulting term for you, but it may be considered very insulting by others, many women see a lack of a handshake offer (or a verbal request for a handshake) as insulting or offensive or discomfiting, even though you feel differently.

@ZPG_Zealot

Which is why I wouldn’t use the term unless someone else has already started throwing insults. However, if someone else wants to be an immature brat and bring the street into the office, I am not going to back down and cower in a corner.

…or take the high road and refuse to lower yourself to their level, apparently… :dubious: