Summary
By reading through several discussions on religious themes on SDMB, it can be noted that there are usually several distinct “threads” going on at the same time. A lot of confusion arises because different people attribute different meanings to words like “love”, “faith”, “freedom”, etc. These words are heavily overloaded in English (as in other languages), so in this thread I would like to propose a few definitions from scratch, and see how much sense they make for the other board members.
Next, based on these definitions, I would like to analyse the statements A)“Those who believe in God will be saved”, and B)“Those who don’t believe will be damned.”
I think these statements are not “logically valid”, but are “satisfiable.” That is, they are false under some (common) interpretations of “believe”, “saved”, or “damned”, and other implied terms, but may be true if they take other meanings, perhaps less common, but reasonable nevertheless. The definitions suggested below are an attempt to provide an interpretation of the latter sort. Assuming these meanings, I am attempting to prove that it’s reasonable to say that one’s theist or atheist stand is largely irrelevant as far as one’s salvation is concerned (assuming God and salvation exist.) What matters in the Long Run is not whether one believes in God’s existence or not, but rather how one relates to love.
In other words, Christianity and atheism may be incompatible in a technical, superficial sense; but many people in either group will find themselves on the same side with respect to God when the Day comes.
(Warning: long post ahead!)
Basic Definitions
Love is unconditionally doing good to someone else, while not denying their freedom, or anyone else’s. Good is taken as a primary notion, assuming each person’s inner understanding of what is good. Freedom is one’s ability to choose. In relation to love, it is one’s ability to choose whether to love or not, or whether to accept someone else’s love or reject it. Freedom is axiomatically good.
Loving requires several things:
- Willingness to do what is good;
- Knowledge of what is good for that person;
- Ability to make that goodness a reality;
- Action to make it happen, regardless of any unfavourable consequences to us, while not denying the freedom of the beneficiary (or of others.)
When someone freely desires our love, we have to act on it. When someone freely rejects our love, we must abstain from the acting. If that person later changes his or her mind, we are required to resume active participation in our practice of love. This is called forgiveness.
We say one is faithful when one doesn’t change.
Observations:
-
Love is not a feeling; our willingness to love is what matters. Love being unconditional, it is irrelevant whether the person we choose to love is likable or not.
-
Faith means permanence in act. Faith can be instantiated in many different ways. For instance, one who loves, does so faithfully, in the sense that the act of loving never ceases. Likewise, when one holds a belief based on evidence, and continues to hold that belief despite of any pressures: the faithfulness here means unabashed adherence to what one knows to be true, even when faced with unfavourable consequences.
Faith is not intrinsically good; one can be faithful in good things, as well as bad. Faithfulness in relation to anything good becomes itself good, because it strives to make that goodness permanent.
Interpretation of A) and B)
God loves us unconditionally. If we don’t reject His love, and we love Him back, we are with Him (because that’s what we want.) If we reject it, we are without Him (for the same reason.)
When God asks us to believe in Him, he asks us to have faith in Him, to trust Him. That is, once we get to know Him and His Love, we are told to not cease to believe in Him and His Love, even when under pressure (i.e., be faithful in Him.) This trust should be based on the Love we experienced personally, just as the trust between two people in love is based on their knowing of each other.
Nobody can love or trust somebody if they don’t know that person to begin with; indeed, it’s absurd to love somebody while being convinced that person doesn’t even exist! An atheist is doing the only reasonable thing when he/she rejects invitations to “love God”, or “trust God”, when he/she sincerely doubts God exists in the first place. Conversely, the mere recognition that someone exists, is not sufficient for a relationship based on love. That means that just accepting the fact God exists, doesn’t do anything to get one close to Him.
Finally, it is possible to love God, even while believing He doesn’t exist. Jesus explained how this works: […]Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
In other words, by the definition of love above, “whenever you love the ones around you, you love Me.”
(I do not claim any deeper understanding of these concepts than others on this board – quite the contrary, actually. This discussion may well evolve above my ability to contribute. I hope, nevertheless, that it will garner the interest of those more knowledgeable, and generate new insights for all.)
