Theologically-Based Medicine and Terry Schaivo

Great Debates
1

In another thread in here, discussion goes on regarding whether or not Terry Schaivo’s spirit is still in her body. Surely a perfect G.D. issue.

It reminds me of discussion of the credentials and educational background of the one Neurologist who has claimed that Mrs. Schaivo is responsive, makes eye contact, and so on. His education and work experiences are directly tied to faith-based organizations.

I forsee a not-too distant future when the viability of human life is measured by whether or not the person’s soul is in good shape. Whether they have been a good person and therefore deserve assistance. Both the President ( The Culture of Life is the cornerstone of what we believe, etc. ) and his brother the Governor of Florida have pushed as hard as they can to contort the separations and workings of the three branches of government to suit the agenda of an Evangelical White House.

Might the day well come when the Office of TheoMedical Management will send a district representative along to hospices and nursing homes to assess the spiritual cleanliness and legitimacy of all dying peoples, and those that do not measure up are not given medical attentions?

Now, that sounds like science fiction. But the core of this debate in Florida, it seems to me, is determining whether or not Mrs. Schaivo is still in there. If her spirit exists and is within her. It goes to how people mourn and deal with death. If her spirit is long gone, then most would not object to allowing her to die. For, if her parents and brother agreed readily that her spirit/soul fled her body when she became brain damaged, there would ( likely ) be little argument right now. From their statements daily to the media, they believe Mrs. Schiavo’s spirit/soul to be within her, for her to “be there”, in a human responsive state.

Is the argument that the spirit resides in the brain stem? In the heart? In the kidneys? In…in where? Within any part of a body that is functioning on any level? If you remove a heart from an accident victim and rush it to a waiting transplant victim, have you removed the spirit and soul from the accident victim because the living heart was removed from their body, and have you then transplanted INTO the waiting recipient a second spirit and soul? And, on the other hand, if you leave that accident victim’s body hooked up to a heart-lung machine for endless days, are they still alive? Is their spirit/soul still in there somewhere, even though they lack a heart and the ability to live on their own?

Who decides if there is a spirit or a soul, and how can such a decisive body manage the measuring of when a spirit or soul has departed from a person’s physical body?

The folks arguing so vehemently to protect her living spirit and soul must believe that absent any scrap of cognitive thought at all, her spirit/soul still resides within her body.

Does this spirit/soul stay till the machine stops? When she finally does die in a physical sense, will it then leave her body? Has it left in slow increments as her cerebral cortex had died and rotted away? Did it leave when she suffered massive brain damage after her heart attack?

Cartooniverse

2

You have raised so many questions it would be impossible to address them in one post, so I will say something on a couple of them.

I suggested earlier that a psychic with the ability to talk to “dead people” be called in and try to establish some communication with Terri. We know from near death experiences that the spirit usually hangs around the body until the death of the body occurs. I don’t think this is unreasonable with what we know now.

I am hoping we can assume the spirit exists in this thread and not get bogged down with calls for “proof”.

3

Can we ask for proof that the psychic can talk to “dead people”? Can you offer such a proof?

4

Separation of church and hospital becomes a new issue?

5

Proof? Proof? We don’t need no stinkin’ proof. It is a well known fact that any attempt to prove psychic powers would involve disinterested parties and psychic powers disappear in the presence of such people. :wink:

6

I knew you were going to say that. You’re not dead by any chance, are you?

7

Not quite.

I don’t mean to make light of the OP. I think Carooniverse has raised an important point even if his scenario is somewhat exaggerated, at least for now. Editorial writer Michael Kinsey has a column in this morning’s Los Angeles Times part of which is along more or less the same lines as the OP.

I certainly don’t have any answer except to be more careful about those whom we elect to high office, and don’t leave them there too long because they become convinced that the “ownership society” includes ownership of the society.

Fortunately, or not as the case may be, the system’s inertia will probably make it all moot for me.

8

There have been many studies done and all have been positive, however, I am not sure any evidence will be enough for some.

http://www.newsnet5.com/station/2893543/detail.html

9

Here is one take on the studies. It includes links to a bibliography.

I’m just too tired of this to take it up any further

10

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse
Who decides if there is a spirit or a soul, and how can such a decisive body manage the measuring of when a spirit or soul has departed from a person’s physical body?
[/QUOTE]

You must know there is not way to answer any of the questions you have asked satisfactorily.

Perhaps it is enough to ask that medical ethics restrict physicians to addressing questions which actually can be answered, at least in principal. In other words, their practice must be informed by peer-reviewed science.

Perhaps, in a world where faith exists, this is too much to ask. Or too little. Either way, impossible to implement, because it is impossible for some of the faithful to recognize the conficts with the core ethos of medicine, which is “do no harm”.

I think, unfortunately, we have found that we may need to interview our physicians about their beliefs; and hopefully they will answer truthfully about how their faith may influence their practice. Patients lucky enough to have such an opportunity can then decide if they wish to stay with that physician or move on.

What we can do about attempts to legislate medical practice into a kind of witchdoctoring, I don’t know. Maybe Americans will recognize the damage being caused by such conservative largesse and vote the cynical and/or superstitious out of office. It’s a hope I have, but a faint one, as things are going.

11

Her name is Terri, not Terry. Short for Theresa.

12

How would we go about certfiying that we had an actual medium instead of a charlatan?

13

the idea of a person’s soul being centered in the cereb. was mentioned in one of the many g.d. terri threads.

what makes you “you” is stored in the cereb. your memories, your thoughts, your personality, etc. they are accessed by you and if you have brain surgery at some point, the surgeon could trigger them, but they have to be expressed through “you.”

if you are going to go down the slippery slope of where exactly a soul is… it could be the “current” or “energy” that animates the cereb.

in terri’s case not only is the cereb. mostly missing, but from the flat eeg’s, so is the current or energy needed to access the cereb.

personally from what i’ve read and seen in her scans, i believe her soul has left quite some time ago.

14

I had no idea this article ran- I don’t read that paper. Interesting co-inkydink. Loopydude, the very idea of interviewing doctors to determine their theological approach is exactly what I fear, and forsee.

Sound medicine is sound medicine. An atrophied and liquified brain does not suddenly being to work to the point where a long- vegitative patient begs for her own life and asks others to save her.

No offense meant to those who will disagree with this statement ( surely, not today of all days… ) but miracles are not the purvey of medical doctors. One asseses based upon clincal evidence at hand.

15

I found this writing very interesting, and agree with the author on most points. Both parties are trying to foretell the value of knowing we are spiritual. This is not possible in my opinion, and just leads to more and more speculation. What we need to understand is the consequences of our actions. If we were all aware of this then the world would become kinder.

16

The only certification possible comes from the family of Terri, here I am including Michael. The psychic will pass information and the family will verify it. If the psychic is in real contact with Terri, it will be apparent from the accuracy of events, manners of speech, and personal info passed to the family.

17

As long as your body lives, you will be connected to it. I can’t tell you exactly where spirit resides in the body. I have heard, and read too many places to believe in only one. I do know that spirit is too large to fit into the small human body, and “sticks out” all around. This produces an aura which some people can see.

18

It is because doctors don’t know it all that we test and try again and again to learn to help those like Terri. I understand she had not been examined for over 10 years. No MRI, no CAT scan, no EEG, nothing for 10 years. A lot can happen in that time and I don’t think her best interests were served at all.

19

This is entirely false. She had a CT scan and an EEG as recently as 2002, and she has had many, many physical exams in that time.

Like I said in the other thread, please educate yourself before going off about this.

20

The good DoctorJ is of course entirely correct.

Hit this Site regarding her situation. Then click on the link titled “Schiavo’s Condition” under the Contents heading.

Scroll down. There are links to the 2002 EEG and CAT Scans performed. They are completely conclusive in their findings.

Desire to believe in one’s position does not equal wiggle room where none exists.