Theologically-Based Medicine and Terry Schaivo

[Cartooniverse]

A good “oops”. That link takes you right to the page. Scroll down to “medical opinions”. Disregard the linking info I just supplied above.

[lekatt]

@Cartooniverse

The good DoctorJ is of course entirely correct.

Hit this Site regarding her situation. Then click on the link titled “Schiavo’s Condition” under the Contents heading.

Scroll down. There are links to the 2002 EEG and CAT Scans performed. They are completely conclusive in their findings.

Desire to believe in one’s position does not equal wiggle room where none exists.

You know what’s really strange about this link, it can be edited by anyone, hardly something that one would believe in.

[PatriotX]

@lekatt

You know what’s really strange about this link, it can be edited by anyone, hardly something that one would believe in.

Here’s the source of that is linked to on that page:

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050318/NEWS01/503180350/1006

Glad I can help you.

[Gorsnak]

@lekatt

You know what’s really strange about this link, it can be edited by anyone, hardly something that one would believe in.

You know what’s even stranger? That link is literally filled with links to primary sources, especially legal documents, that confirm what it says. Fancy that.

[GIGObuster]

@lekatt

You know what’s really strange about this link, it can be edited by anyone, hardly something that one would believe in.

Here is what the court found then, regarding the scan and the verdict of 2002:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder11-02.txt

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT

              In re: The GUARDIANSHIP OF Theresa Marie SCHIAVO, Incapacitated.
            Michael SCHIAVO, as Guardian of the person of Theresa Marie Schiavo,
                                         Petitioner,
                                             v.
                      Robert SCHINDLER and Mary Schindler, Respondents.
                                              
                                     No. 90-2908-GB-003.
                                              
                                       Nov. 22, 2002.

Dr. Maxfield also felt that '02 CT Scan showed improvement in the quality of the
remaining brain matter and that one reason Terry Schiavo was not in a persistent
vegetative state was that she could swallow her own saliva and breathe on her own.
These views were not supported by any of the other doctors and Drs. Greer,
Bambakidis and Cranford strongly disagreed with his '02 CT Scan opinion. Dr.
Cranford further testified that saliva handling is from the brain stem, a reflex.

The Problem for Dr. Maxfield was that his opinion was not deemed credible.
The doctors the Schindlers found to support their position, were what I would call quacks…

Dr. Hammesfahr feels his vasodilatation therapy will have a positive affect on
Terry Schiavo. Drs. Greer, Bambakidis and Cranford do not feel it will have such an
affect. It is clear that this therapy is not recognized in the medical community.
Dr. Hammesfahr operates his clinic on a cash basis in advance which made the
discussion regarding Medicare eligibility quite irrelevant. A lot of the time also
was spent regarding his nominations for a Nobel Prize. While he certainly is a
self-promoter and should have had for the court’s review a copy of the letter from
the Nobel committee in Stockholm, Sweden, the truth of the matter is that he is
probably the only person involved in these proceedings who had a United States
Congressman recommend him for such an award. Whether the committee “accepted” the
nomination, “received” the nomination or whatever, it is not that significant. What
is significant, however, and what undemises his creditability is that he did not
present to this court any evidence other than his generalized statements as to the
efficacy of his therapy on brain damaged individuals like Terry Schiavo. He
testified that he has treated about 50 patients in the same or worse condition than
Terry Schiavo since 1994 but he offered no names, no case studies, no videos and no
tests results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. If
his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is
inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients he has
treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now
patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995
involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash. None of these
patients were in a persistent vegetative state and all were conversant. Even he
acknowledges that he is aware of no article or study that shows vasodilatation
therapy to be an effective treatment for persistent vegetative state patients. The
court can only assume that such substantiations are not available, not just
catalogued in such a way that they can not be readily identified as he testified.

        Neither Dr. Hammesfahr nor Dr. Maxfield was able to credibly testify that the   
    treatment options that they offered would significantly improve Terry Schiavo's     
    quality of life. While Dr. Hammesfahr blithely stated he should be able to get her  
    to talk, he admitted he was not sure in what way he can improve her condition       
    although he feels certain her can. He also told the court that "only rarely" do his 
    patients have no improvement. Again, he is extremely short of specifics. Dr.        
    Maxfield spoke of a "chance" of recovery although he stated there was a significant 
    probability that hyperbaric therapy would improve her condition. It is clear from   
    the evidence that these therapies are experimental insofar as the medical community 
    is concerned with regard to patients like Terry Schiavo which is borne out by the   
    total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature. The Mandate requires
    something more than a belief, hope or "some" improvement. It requires this court to 
    find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient 
    promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex so as to  
    significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a  
    preponderance of the evidence to that effect. The other doctors, by contrast, all   
    testified that there was no treatment available to improve her quality of life. They
    were also able to credibly testify that neither hyperbaric therapy nor              
    vasodilatation therapy was an effective treatment for this sort of injury.

[GIGObuster]

The more I read of the court decisions, the angrier I get at congress and the president being so ignorant.

IIRC there was a government office that gave unbiased scientific information to congress on controversial topics until the late 90’s, now I see that closing that department was a colossal mistake.

Where in heck they got their info on this case?

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@GIGObuster

Where in heck they got their info on this case?

From the lies Terri’s parents told everyone.

(more of the same, just pointing out the guilty party)

[Mr.Miskatonic]

@lekatt

I suggested earlier that a psychic with the ability to talk to “dead people” be called in and try to establish some communication with Terri. We know from near death experiences that the spirit usually hangs around the body until the death of the body occurs. I don’t think this is unreasonable with what we know now.

This sort of thing is what really scares me about paranormal nonsense.

Every sentence bleeds with using total crap to make decisions.

“AWWWWW WAAAAAAAA” had more validity.

[lekatt]

@Mr. Miskatonic

This sort of thing is what really scares me about paranormal nonsense.

Every sentence bleeds with using total crap to make decisions.

“AWWWWW WAAAAAAAA” had more validity.

I am really glad you cleared that up for us.

[PatriotX]

@Gorsnak

You know what’s even stranger? That link is literally filled with links to primary sources, especially legal documents, that confirm what it says. Fancy that.

Horse to water and all that.

[Gorsnak]

@PatriotX

Horse to water and all that.

You can stick a feeding tube into a horse, but you can’t make it drink. No wait! You can make it drink.

[tnetennba]

@lekatt

I am hoping we can assume the spirit exists in this thread and not get bogged down with calls for “proof”.

The mission of the board is to fight ignorance, not foster it.

[lekatt]

@cricetus

The mission of the board is to fight ignorance, not foster it.

Really? Here I thought it was to find truth – hence “Straight Dope.”

Of course, everyone knows that ignorance is all those things people believe that you don’t. I fight ingnorance also. Heck, we all fight ignorance.

[Blalron]

@lekatt

I am hoping we can assume the spirit exists in this thread and not get bogged down with calls for “proof”.

Even assuming the spirit exists doesn’t mean we have to assume that people can communicate with spirits.

[Loopydude]

@lekatt

Of course, everyone knows that ignorance is all those things people believe that you don’t.

Instead of all the evidence one persistently and willfully ignores?

[tnetennba]

@lekatt

Really? Here I thought it was to find truth – hence “Straight Dope.”

Of course, everyone knows that ignorance is all those things people believe that you don’t. I fight ingnorance also. Heck, we all fight ignorance.

You don’t find ignorance when you ask people to set aside their demands for proof of highly dubious claims. You foster it.

As for the mission of the SDMB, heck – look at that thing up there with the name of the board. See the second line?

[lekatt]

Wanted to talk about spiritual healing.

In Russia psychics work alongside doctors to help the patients. They have done this for many years. There are other countries where spiritual people are working with doctors on a day-to-day basic. Even here in America, in Boston, one of the Hospitals had some of their nurses learn Reiki, which is a type of spiritual healing. The nurses liked to use it and their patients improved faster than those who didn’t get Reiki.

Accupuncture, chi, and other forms of oriental healing are spiritual in nature.

Unfortunately in this country our young are taught that any from of spiritualism is ignorance and superstition. This teaching has been applied for more than a decade now, and during that time the suicide rate has tripled. Depression, mental illness, anxiety attacks and other mental (spiritual) maladies are on the increase. By trying to eliminate all vestages of religion and spiritualism science has eliminated the “tools” used to cope with these illnesses for centuries.

It is well known that “12 step” programs using spiritual tools cure more people of additions than secular programs.

In spiritualism healing is accomplished by love, the unconditional spiritual kind of love. Those who have an excess of it pass it to those who need it. Only spiritual people who practice love will be any good at helping healing others.

People can heal themselves by using spiriual tools and live peaceful, happy lives. I will not list any of the tools here, those who are really interested can easily find them.

[lekatt]

In the OP it talks about how if everyone knew they had a spirit. The proper way to put that is if everyone knew they were spiritual would that improve the world we live in? It doesn’t seem to make a difference now among those that believe. I agree with this, knowing that you are spiritual doesn’t make you kind and loving.

However knowing the consequences of your actions might do the trick. In some near death experiences the individual goes through a life review. His life on earth is played back for him with one important difference. He gets to feel exactly how each person he interacted with felt. If he helped someone, he felt their joy, if he hurt someone he felt their pain. Now all NDEs don’t have life reviews, but I know of no experiencer who didn’t change his life style because of the experience. They, I, saw what our deeds, actions, and thoughts did to us. So, we, I, became a lot more tolerant and loving of our fellow man.

If there were some way to teach others this, some churches do teach this, it would help. Spiritual justice is perfect, all kindness is rewarded, and all hurts are redressed.

[Loopydude]

@lekatt

By trying to eliminate all vestages of religion and spiritualism science has eliminated the “tools” used to cope with these illnesses for centuries.

Even if this statement were remotely accurate, you might consider that spirituality is associated with reduced stress and feelings of helplessness, which, tentatively, may correlate positively with improved prognosis, at least for some ailments. Non-spiritual stress-coping mechanisms (such as cognitive-behavioral therapy, guided imagery, etc.) have also shown efficacy in terms of improved recovery outcome, though those claims are also rather tentative. Further research on the subject is needed, but it is not unreasonable to hypothesize that much of what falls in the heading of “spiritual healing” is simply an elaborate means of achieving a salutogenic psychological state, and further, that it may be possible to promote such a state with equal efficacy in patients with no spiritual beliefs through the use of psychotherapy. This approach might have the added benefit of being controlled, e.g., it might limit the exposure of patients to harmful substances used in certain “alternative” remedies, or simply victimization by quacks and scammers who prey on the weak and gullible.

[Homebrew]

Dr. Gary Schwartz uses flawed methods, says Ray Hyman, professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Oregon.