I’ve held my tongue as long as possible. Faith, you’re beating the shit out of yourself unnecessarily. You made a mistake. You don’t need to remove yourself from the face of the Earth. you don’t need to become a spokesperson against infidelity. I don’t see you as the monster you feel you are. I said it before and I’ll say it again. If anything, you did his marriage and children a service. He’s (possibly) putting forth more of an effort to work on it, he’s home with his kids (which may or may not be a good thing…). Yes, your heart is broken and your mind is confused. As for atonement…I think I stated my views on that. Give yourself a break and get on with your life. You’re entitled to some happiness.
After rereading this and contemplating my answers, I’d say you are doing a good job Faith - I agree with K about getting on w/ your life. I am sometimes extremely opinionated regarding fidelity issues. I’m a 34 year old man whose family was ripped appart in more ways than I can, or would like to, get into. And I was only 12 when it happened. The ramifications rippled through my mothers side of the family, fathers side of the family and the mistress’ side as well. So please excuse me if I was being overly opinionated and blunt. 
No hard feelings.
Tripler and Phil -
It is my firm belief that if people want to get out of a marriage they will. If we make it hard, then they will just move out and in with their girlfriends. That one of the reasons for infidelity is because its a passive aggressive way to get out. Maybe your new lover will solve all your problems and you’ll run off together. Maybe your spouse will find out and kick you out. Either way, its over - and all you have to do is react.
What I would like is if people in unhappy marriages took steps to correct the problem (either by taking steps to fix the marriage or by ending it) before they decide the way to get out is to start fooling around (and many people do - but then some people judge them for getting out for reasons not “good enough”). Replacing your spouse before you’ve ended it is gutless.
I’ll lay some blame on the Bimbo who decided my husband would be a good boyfriend. But if I’m splitting blame, she gets 10%. I get 5% (mostly for making the stupid assumption that “men grow up slower, he’ll grow up, he has potential”). He gets 85%. She didn’t make any promises to me about my marriage. I don’t know what he told her. Was her action tasteless - yep. Ill judged - probably - although they’ve been married 12 years now - and she did me a great favor in taking him off my hands.
I agree with Dangerosa about the “kick in the pants” aspect of having an affair. Sometimes its the only way to lay the cards out on the table. Sometimes it’s the only way a partner will listen.
I often do that, for various reasons :
-The thread fell down the list and I don’t open it again. I quite often don’t follow the threads I posted in, so I generally open only the ones which I find interesting and are at the top of the list. In this case I don’t even notice the answer.
-I just feel lazy, and answering would require research, or to write a looong post (which takes me significantly longer than it would for a native english speaker), and I’m not interested enough in the argument to do so.
-I stated my opinion/arguments one or several times, the other poster did the same, and I think I’ve really nothing significant to add to what I wrote previously.
In any case, I assume that the other poster won’t be annoyed, since he had the last word.
In response to the “response” question: I sometimes get annoyed, but other times, it’s like beating a dead horse. I do rather wish someone would have responded to my question about if the hurt to the kids is any less when someone takes a new partner years after a divorce. In my opinion, kids are generally territorial and they’ll be hurt no matter when you take up with their parent. The “before” or “after” doesn’t matter much to little kids. Once they’re old enough to understand adultry, it might be worse, but they’ll still have a hard-on if there was a “clean” divorce. Anyone? Buehler?
Well yeah except for the welfare of the kids…
If you’re in a marriage that’s on the rocks, ended, going down hill, what have you…is having an affair with another person, because your heart goes pitter patter, the best thing to bring in to the lives of the children?
I’m not going to speak to the situations that don’t involve kids…but when there are children involved…EVERYTHING changes. This notion that we’re slaves to our emotions doesn’t hold a whole lot of water with me when there are innocent bystanders to the chaos created by “following your heart”.
Wow…you’re suggesting that kids don’t know (or care) what “cheating” means?
Sorry. While I think it’s rather obvious that “mom dating new guy after divorce” will bother many kids…
…mom “cheating on dad”, (which implies lying and lack of trust to both dad AND the kids) would be exponentially more troublesome.
Yes, of course it’s wrong. But why does society have so much venom for the “homewrecker”? Everyone agrees that the person who made the wedding vows and then cheats is bad. But the venom seems to always fall to the “other woman”, instead of the cheater. I wonder why that is. I would’ve thought that the venom would be applied more harshly for the person who broke their promises and betrayed another’s trust.
Tripler, many people swear different things. I, for one, did not swear to love and honour my partner until ‘death do us part’ or ‘in sickness and in health’ and I didn’t make my promises to any gods or to the community. So before you condemn someone for not standing by their sworn words, how about finding about what their vows were, instead of assuming they matched the ones you intend to take? (No, I am not in an open marriage, and yes I do hope to stay with my partner for the rest of my life, and am willing to go to some pretty extreme lengths to ensure that. I just don’t think every marriage is under the same set of ‘rules’)
Will those Pubbies EVER tire of sniffing around Clinton’s cock? Will they never learn it was none of their business?
Various points:
Even if this was not intended as a dig at faithfool, it inevitably ends up as one. She is clearly in an emotionally vulnerable state, she has admitted that she believes that she has behaved badly: I believe that people should get off her case.
It is not necessarily better for children to have their parents stick out a shitty marriage.
People often fall in love with someone else when a marriage is beyond repair.
Not all affairs are necessarily aimed at breaking up a marriage.
Before you assume to critique what I’ve discussed, why don’t you lay onto the table what your exact vows were? I’ll put a Jackson that you made your vows in the view of a legal authority, be it clerical or judicial, and through that, you’ve made promises to a community of people.
I’ve sworn things myself. Marriage isn’t one of them yet, but I will swear to my God that I’ll uphold them (and yours too, if need be).
Tripler
Go ahead, call me ‘old fashioned’.
[QUOTE=Tripler]
. . .(and yours too, if need be).
My apologies on this comment. My fervent nature kind of made me hit “Enter” before I was ready for it.
I meant this one in that I’d uphold my promises to whatever god you lay claim to. As in: (and your God too, if need be)
Wow that would be a fantastic point IF that were the point of the OP…whiiiiiiiiich it ain’t, it’s about cheating
So end the marriage then…ESPECIALLY if there are children involved…again this notion that folks are “slaves” to their emotions (when there are innocent bystanders affected by the chaos) is a bit shallow.
Ummm…who said that they were? They certainly DO often have that effect though.
That’s come as balm for my busted spirit after spending an hour-long tear-fest with my therapist. You see, I’ve spent a lifetime of never forgiving myself for anything because I thought I was unworthy < insert another reference to my mother here > and it sometimes saved me from the smack-down I’d inevitably get from her, just a little less severe. Hell, if I were older, I’d be certain that I’d picked off Kennedy. And thank you for saying I deserve some happiness too. I’ve never believed that before, and for the very first time today, I had what must be a true epiphany… I can’t save anyone but myself. And i really FELT it to be the real deal. First time. Ever.
Anyway, I appreciate all your help in my working through this. Can I treat you to some Texas BBQ someday? Just let me know.
I completely understand where you’re coming from, experiencing much the same thing myself, only at 10. So, opinions are held strongly on that and they should be. I’m grateful that you’ve been respectful to me and of course, since you’re also another favorite poster of mine (since I used to want to be an English teacher – Junior High level), no hard feelings. BBQ goes for you too.
[As to the “response to the response” thing, I apologize for being nit-picky and overly sensitive. It’s just been one of those days and the replies about it, have given me a different perspective.]
About what’s best for the children, depends on the situation. In mine, ANYTHING would’ve been better than those two staying together (which I was led to believe was the case in his situation and why he wasn’t leaving yet, yadda, yadda, yadda) and in others, the children can come away unscathed, some with too high an opinion of one or the other, or unjustly hating them either. Some never recover and it’s a repeating them in their lives, but the same can apply in reverse.
Lastly, I hope this wasn’t aimed at me because I’m sure everyone’s really tired of my specific situation being supplied as the anecdote, but it had nothing to do with being “slaves to our emotions… following your heart.” Or [from a different post of yours that I’m too exhausted to try to work out right now – sorry] “because your heart goes pitter patter.” That’s just not always the case. Sometimes, what you do wrongly, as I admittedly did, you think is the BEST thing all around. God, I can’t imagine me being any further off base, but I really. truly. honestly. 1 billion %. believed. it. with. my. whole. heart. I would have gone to my death to fight for thinking we were saving them. Obviously, that was stupid and unbelievably naive, but there’s at least one person’s take on it.
And as for one of my parents’ cheating on the other, again, that didn’t phase me (and yes, I knew probably as much as anyone else), but the constant fighting and yelling and never-ending tension did. I almost wrote Dear Abby about some way to get out of there and that was when I was in 5th grade. Imagine that, because ultimately, there was no relief in sight and they are still together with one as tyrant and the other as supplicant. It’s so sad what they’ve done to each other and the ‘innocent bystanders’, like me and my step-siblings. Probably the rest of those around them too. Ugh. It’s painful just to think about it.
Essured, I already told you how you’ve helped my day (as well as others), so I won’t go all schmaltzy again here. But I acknowledge that what you say is typically how people look at affairs. We (male or female) are somehow the seducers who abducted some random person and forced them, against their will to have a relationship with us. If my husband ever cheated on me, I would assume it was because of a problem in our marriage, something WE would need to fix and not because he just couldn’t control himself with any ol’ woman throwing her legs open to him repeatedly as he passed by and therefore making it all her fault. 'Cause, ya know, men just can’t control themselves. Just like this, I would blame myself and assume she hadn’t been told the whole story or only select bits/manipulated/out right lied to/whatever. But that’s just me.
Can I offer my undying love here? But only if YOU ARE NOT MARRIED and it’s just a friendship thing. I repeat, I’ve learned my lesson. Many, many times over.
The other points you bring up I completely agree with. My only divergence would be to end one (or both, as the case may be) before beginning anew with anyone else. That’s only fair to all parties involved. And as the old adage goes… “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.” Yep, mine falls under that category.
Thank you and a big {{{hug}}}, since that’s what that felt like, in return. I really am trying to, hopefully, finally, get my life straight without dependence on anyone but me. Finally.
And in conclusion, to both Tripler and beagledave, I think I’ll graciously bow out of this part of the discussion because I don’t think, after much (way too much, IMHO) explanation all over the board about why/how I ended up where and in what I was in, (and everyone is bound to be sick of me by now) y’all are basically talking about something different. I’ll just honor that and let it go on without me. Unless there’s something more useful (ok, that’s questionable, but you know what I mean) I can add.
Once more, with feeling, thanks to everyone, on both sides of the fence. I’ve learned a LOT since yesterday.
-
My comments were not in response to your story or comments by you (scroll up you’ll see
) but a response to points from Kalhoun and zephyrine -
I’ve actually refrained from specific comments about your situation, but FWIW I agree with Phlosphr’s comments in the OP about you. I wish you the best of luck as you move on.
beagledave: You were right to pick me up on my post (note to self: do not post at quarter to three in the morning when you are too tired to back up your spurious points). I had been following faithfool’s thread, and was getting riled at the number of people who piled on to make the point that cheating is wrong despite the fact that she was trying to explain, rather than defend, her actions. The “won’t someone think of the children” excuse for keeping a marriage togehter when it should be dissolved is a bit of a bugbear of mine at the moment, and as a result, my post was partly a general drive-by.
faithfool, I’m happy to offer support, friendship and my admiration for your honesty (and no, I’m not married, but I am a straight female, so I think we’re ok there ).
Back to the OP: I do tend to agree that the onus is on the married person to be the guardian of their own moral scruples, and the consequences of their actions. Just to make a sweeping generalization: an affair is more a symptom than a cause if a marriage breaks down as a result of it. At the very least, if one partner considers an affair to be a dealbreaker and the other doesn’t, there is a serious lack of communication going on. At the worst, if an affair causes the marriage to break down, I would suggest that there were problems already in existence, even if one partner was unaware of them (and the problems are not necessarily with the marriage itself; if one person feels the need to look outside the marriage for excitement, it’s quite possible they will do so whoever they are married to).
[QUOTE=zephyrineI do tend to agree that the onus is on the married person to be the guardian of their own moral scruples, and the consequences of their actions. Just to make a sweeping generalization: an affair is more a symptom than a cause if a marriage breaks down as a result of it. At the very least, if one partner considers an affair to be a dealbreaker and the other doesn’t, there is a serious lack of communication going on. At the worst, if an affair causes the marriage to break down, I would suggest that there were problems already in existence, even if one partner was unaware of them (and the problems are not necessarily with the marriage itself; if one person feels the need to look outside the marriage for excitement, it’s quite possible they will do so whoever they are married to).[/QUOTE]
Well said, Zeph. I’ve got my eye on you! I hope people don’t think I’m trivializing the effect cheating has on the family. I’ve said that it does hurt older children, although often not NEARLY as much as a generally shitty relationship does. In fact, I think the knowledge that a parent(s) are *capable * of love might actually be comforting to some kids.
I really don’t feel it’s any different than a “straight” divorce for younger kids, and I believe that a straight divorce → newfound love is equally painful for most older kids. I’m also a bit surprised that so many people think the children would even know about an infidelity! I certainly wouldn’t share that information with my child (at least not during the time immediately surrounding the divorce). Yes, there are some bitter people who share that info with the kids just to be mean and spiteful. But most parents would want to shield their children from the gory details.
Let’s try this again (sigh…)