So, been doing some thinking this week after the shock I got from the Trump victory. Needless to say I was shocked, horrified and just…perplexed. I never thought Trump had a chance, and have said so often in the various threads on this subject since well before he was even the Republican nominee. I also didn’t think Bernie had a chance, that the Clinton was the obvious choice…she is who I voted for, and many if not most of my family and friends and even co-workers did the same.
However, perhaps this Trump victory shows that it IS possible for a candidate that isn’t part of the mainstream political machine on either side, but one who fires up the imagination of the people to be elected…and maybe I was wrong about Bernie and his chances. Perhaps the Dems SHOULD have gone with Bernie as their guy in this election. Obviously, it’s too late now…water under the bridge. However, in the wake of this disaster, maybe the Dems should give serious thought to the future…and to running someone like Bernie who maybe doesn’t appeal to the Dem political machine but, instead, who fires up the people.
I haven’t been posting as much as RL has kind of taken a huge bite out of my life, but I wanted to do a thread on this and see what 'dopers think of my random musings on the subject. To me, what the Trump victory really shows is that, perhaps, the given political wisdom of who can or can’t be a viable candidate might be…almost certainly is…flawed. And maybe a guy like Bernie who can fire up the young people and the masses IS a viable candidate. If Trump could win…well, I don’t see why Bernie couldn’t have. In fact, I’m convinced he would have…now, in retrospect and with hindsight.
This was, apparently, the year to throw caution to the wind and go for it. I was a Bernie supporter, but I thought Hillary had a better chance against Trump. I’m not at all sure about that now. It sure would have been interesting, though!!!
Easily? Hypotheticals are fun and all, but Trump ran a postfactual campaign based on freeform grievances and nationalist, Christian right wing rhetoric. Some obvious attack lines present themselves against a possibly-agnostic socialist of Jewish descent. Instead of e-mails we would have heard about his love affair with the Soviet Union. He would have been portrayed as a 30-year insider politician, and there would have been whispers that he was a closet atheist. And we never did see Bernie’s tax returns; maybe he would have continued to withhold them and blunt that line of attack against Trump, or maybe there were some actual skeletons in there if he did release. Admittedly some of these are basically BS attacks, but since when has that ever stopped anybody?
Frankly, I’m also not sure that Bernie had the right temperament to deal with the sort of BS attacks that you get when you run for President. He’s a good fighter on policy, but he’s also sort of cranky and hostile with those who waste his time. Now maybe that would have played out better and he would have gotten more voters out than Clinton did, but I am not sure. Look at Russ Feingold in Wisconsin - beaten out by a brain dead corporate whore, and by a bigger margin than Hillary herself was. There weren’t a bunch of progressive/socialist candidates who did really well in areas Clinton herself lost.
I’m pretty much in shock and dismay but I think progressives need to not delude ourselves into believing that there’s a huge pent up demand for radical leftism specifically. Not saying that it might not be effective some places or in some conditions, but if that’s the lesson you take from Tuesday, I think that’s misguided. More inspiring candidates? Definitely.
Yeah Biden was the best bet and would have won easily. I was rooting for him to jump in when it seemed possible for a while in 2015. He left it too late though. My hunch is he was interested in running but was discouraged by the Dem elites in what would prove to be a catastrophic mistake.
Yep. For all of his tendency towards gaffes, they are mostly of the blunt rather than arrogant sort. Against Trump specifically they wouldn’t have hurt him as bad. And Biden does have more charisma than HC.
I’m sorry, but at the end of the day I just don’t think Bernie would have been anymore successful with the Rust Belt white working class than Clinton - primary wins do not necessarily translate to the GE. Nor would he have done any better getting out the minority vote ( possibly to the contrary ). He would have genuinely fired up the folks in my neighborhood. But the inner Bay Area and its assorted sister enclaves around the country were not going to be enough to make up for his deficits.
However, the results would have been the same in the end. An inexperienced leader with an extremist agenda is a disaster whether it smells like bullshit or roses to you.
I agree that Biden would’ve -probably- won. More importantly, I think he would’ve changed up the narrative of the election in a healthier direction. I think it would’ve been more about ideas and less about personalities, and few people would’ve wondered if the Democratic candidate “even understands” their concerns. Joe knows how to speak to a crowd or an individual on an emotional level.
But I think Biden was absolutely honest about his reasons for not running; I don’t think “Dem elites” had anything to do with it.
Bernie and the Democrats had the same problem as Rubio/Kasich/Cruz had with the GOP - if people don’t vote for you, how are you gonna stop them? If Bernie can’t win a Democratic primary, I rather doubt if he is going to do better in a general election.
This. I kind of doubt that disaffected college grads with a degree in Communications and a buttload of debt are going to be enough of a GOTV advantage to overcome the “where the fuck are we going to get the money to pay for free college?” of the rest of the country. And if charisma is an issue, well, The Donald ain’t exactly Mr. Personality and Hillary doesn’t ooze charm out of every pore, but Bernie is like that uncle you only see at Christmas who has bad breath and wants to tell you what’s wrong with the country.
Of course, I didn’t think Trump would win, so what the heck do I know.
My issue is the opposite - how do we convince/reform the GOP so we don’t nominate a Cheeto-haired orangutan with a populist rap and no experience.
Good thing you’re dead, Jerry, because you ain’t seen nothing yet.
In this election, gaffes could very well have been a plus. It makes him more human.
Bernie had his issues and that accent might not have gone over too well in the Rust Belt, but he had a crazy kind of charm that might, just might have given him the edge. If Trump, a billionaire, can relate to working class folks, a Jewish guy, son of immigrants, from Brooklyn should be able to, too.
I don’t think Sanders would have won for reasons already expressed. Alienating more moderate Dems may have led to losses in other areas, even if he did gain votes in the Rust Belt (and I’m not sure its all that many, because a lot of blue color workers already thought Obama and Clinton were super liberal to begin with and exit polls showed they wanted a more conservative president).
But also I don’t think Biden would have won either. The last two times he tried to run for President, he was abysmal at it and struggled terribly in primaries.
