Thinking of joining the military--opinions please

In My Humble Opinion
41

Thanks everyone! Next question- what exactly does “qualifying” consist of? (It was mentioned by BF in the last post.) I think I have heard of it before on television, but details would be appreciated.

This thread has helped us a lot in getting a clearer view of military life. If Spit or anyone else has other relevant questions, I hope they will speak up. And anyone who would like to add more information to previous questions is also welcome.

Another question- what has been the best and worst parts of being in service?

42

Qualifying is the process of studying for, conducting on-the-job training for, and passing the tests for whatever it is you’re expected to be doing. For instance, as a new junior officer aboard a ship, he’ll be expected to stand watches on the bridge starting as the conning officer, then the junior officer of the deck, then finally the officer of the deck. He has to qualify for each of these, with the new qual building on what he’s learned from the previous qual (you can’t be an OOD without first being a JOOD or conning officer). This involves studying like crazy for months–everything from the ship’s engineering, damage control, and weapons to what flags to fly and courtesies to lay out when a flag officer visits the ship. Amidst the studying there are books full of “line items” to get signed off. These are areas which are important and you’re pretty much expected to know them off the top of your head. You study for the line item subject, then pick a guy who’s already qualified and discuss that subject with him. If he’s satisfied you know what you need to know, he signs the item off. This tracks your progress and can hold the signer accountable if you show yourself to be weak in certain areas. This all leads up to an oral board, where you stand in front of a handful of already-qualified peers and maybe a senior officer and they get to grill you for an hour or three until they’re satisfied you have what it takes to be the guy in charge of the bridge (and essentially the ship) for a watch. It’s your chance to put it all together and impress people. It can be pretty dry at times, but it’s very challenging and rewarding. One of the most stressful and nervous times of my life was the week before my oral board. One of the happiest was the day of the board, when I’d learned I’d passed it.

For your other question, I’d say the best things for me are seeing the world and getting to be the guy in charge of conducting missions and moving my crew from the states to the other side of the world. It’s challenging, and there are some tough decisions to make along the way. But earning trust and respect from your peers and subordinates, and the camraderie and friends I’ve had, make it all worth it.

The worst part for me was being away from home. It was a big factor in losing my marriage.

43

Thanks, Fugazi! Actually, Recruiting nearly destroyed me. I had an empathy/sympathy problem: I felt too strongly the troubles my applicants faced, and when they weren’t qualified to join (as 3 out of 4 applicants do not meet standards), it killed me to have to turn them away. Nearly litterally killed me, in fact.

BF, I was a Sub RO. Always nice to see another ‘tuber’ around!

Submarines are all-volunteer. In fact, you have to volunteer twice: Once to joint the service, and once more to go ‘Boats’. They’re elite, in that if you don’t ‘qualify’ in a year, you’re tossed out, sent to the surface fleet. Qualification, IRT submarines, means learning everything there is to know about your boat, it’s operation, capabilities, and equipment. It usually takes about 8-10 months of hard after-hours study to make it. It’s worth it! Submarines are hard work, and long hours, and you work side-by-side with people who give a damn. You can, and do, trust them with your life, and they, in turn, trust you just as fundamentally. It’s a very rewarding life, IMO. But then, I wear Dolphins, so I might be biased. :wink:

Geobabe, if I ever asked, I’ve forgotten: What tender did you sail on?

Separation from family is hard in the Nav, unless you’re in a shore-intensive rate (favorable sea-shore rotation). USAF may be a better choice, if you’re worried about that. AF, IMO, doesn’t offer the sheer variety of jobs that the Nav does, nor does it cross-train as comprehensively, but it does have some very desirable jobs, none-the-less, and it has a more stable family environment, IMO. Again, it’s all about deciding what’s important to you, and choosing your Service & jobs accordingly.

Best o’ luck!

44

I’ve been biting my tongue for a while, but since it doesn’t look as if anyone else is going to mention it, here goes:

If you are at heart a pacifist, why would you ever even consider military service? The only reason for the military, it’s raison detre, is to fight. You will be surrounded by people who believe (sincerely) the opposite of what you believe, and who see your beliefs as weak and soft. It is an organisation run on discipline and obedience (necessarily), not at all on independant thought and action.

If I were a vegetarian, I wouldn’t take a job in a slaughterhouse. Why would a pacifist join the military?

45

Fairblue, I would strongly suggest that when your fiance goes to the recruiters office to take someone with him that has been in that service for a while and can give a qualified opinion on what the recruiter is saying and what job(s) are being offered. Tranquilis notwithstanding, there are less scrupulous recruiters out there that will simply try to meet their target numbers (providing he’s qualified for something). I aced my ASVAB as well and what did my recruiter try to stick me in? Foreward Fire Control Crewmember, or artillery foreward recon and spotter in laymanspeak. Thank g0d my Dad (retired Army) went with me on the second visit and was able to steer me into a less bewildering combat job. That may not be such a problem currently as I read an article the other day that said all but the Marines ahd already reached their recruiting goals for this year, due in no small part to a certain situation in NYC last September.

I can’t speak for other services, but in the Army an overseas tour is either accompanied or unaccompanied (hardship), meaning family can come along on accompanied tours but the tour will be longer. For example, a tour in Europe is typically 2 years, but with family along is 3-4 years. A tour in Korea is almost always a 1 year hardship tour for lower enlisted personnel. I might add that family in this case means spouse and children, no fiances. An unmarried lower enlisted soldier is usually expected to live in the barracks, depending on available space and type of unit he’s assigned to. The military will not pay to move non-family members anywhere, even within the US. Extended separation can be tough on newlyweds, and this I speak from experience of myself and others. Not that I mean to rush you into anything though.

I see on preview that Lamar has posted a mild pacifist rant.

Wow, a truth and an utter falsehood in the same sentence. I’m guessing you have been in the military so I don’t believe you’re really qualified to make an assessment. I suppose you believe everyone in the military is a bloodthirsty warmonger. That couldn’t be further from the truth. A real soldier prays for peace and that his superiors are wise enough to use every alternative plan to violence that they can. Occasionally peace can only be obtained through a show of force. For an example, let’s say a women keeps a item in her purse to repel an attacker should such an unfortunate situation occur. Is she a violent person by virtue of being prepared? I’m betting that if you’d grown up under a facist regime you might sing a different tune. As far as the independent thought and action goes, you couldn’t be more wrong concerning the US military. History taught us that soldiers who are taught to follow orders mindlessly (as in robotic lower enlisted Nazis during WW2) will usually hasten your defeat in battle. A military force will always be needed until a peaceful world government has been established, and even then a force of some type will be needed to deal with those who would overthrow it. Unless you’re prepared to guarantee us that no one with violent tendencies will be born from now on.

Take a break from the movies and talk to someone who has served in the last 20 years. I guess I’d better stop now. This post is at least twice as long as I had originally intended.

46

I disagree. It is also to protect, and is there to act as a deterrent to war.
**You will be surrounded by people who believe (sincerely) the opposite of what you believe, and who see your beliefs as weak and soft. **

I doubt that. I haven’t seen any of the military personnel on this thread suggest that prefering peace but being realistic about the unlikelyhood of it in the near future is “weak and soft.” Do you think that people only go into the military because they are warmongers seeking conflict? That has not been my experience at all with people I’ve known in service.

Also, are you assuming that a desire for peace is intolerable to people in the military? I would say the opposite- that people in the military are more likely to be pacifists at heart, because they are more aware of what is at stake when peace is broken. It has been my understanding that the people who must go to war are the biggest pacifists of all. Military leaders, at least the good ones, hate leading people into battle to die. It is the hardest part of the job, along with being away from family, but people will do what they believe is right no matter what the cost.

To quote my fiance–To keep the peace.

47

Go disobey a direct order and get back to me, m’kay?

Get back to the question - Would you advise a self-described pacifist to join the armed forces? Why?

48

Most, the vast majority, of Recruiters are honest, ethical folk. A small sprinkling of assholes give the rest of us a bad name.

War is chaos.
Inflexible thought cannot cope with chaos.
Inflexible thinking loses.
The US military is not in a habit of losing.
Lamar Mundane has repeated one of the oldest false sterotypes about the military.

Discipline is inportant, but so is flexible thinking. How do you reconcile those two? It’s simple, really. Discipline provides the framework and foundation from which independant thought strikes.

No one wishes peace more than the soilider. Why? Because they wish to live, and it’s not the politicians that will be dying. Why, then, do they serve? Because they understand that someone must, and they place great value on their society & country. They’d still rather make the other guy die for his country, should it come to that (though they feverently hope it doesn’t), but they understand there’s a chance they too might die. Lastly, and ultimately, they serve for their fellows. They serve to support their brothers and sisters in uniform, the guy in the trench next to them.

There are unscrupulous leaders out there, and they are willing to brutalize their neighbors. They are willing to use violent means to advance their nations or causes to the disadvantage of other nations and peoples. If you live in a world like that, you had better be prepared to resist, to fight back, or to be a doormat. Or as someone far wiser said: If you would have peace, study war.

49

Lamar Mundane

Now that your question has been answered three times I would like to get back to the topic at hand. I suggest that if you wish to further the debate about pacifists in the military that you open a thread in GD rather than continue to hijack this one. I do not mean to sound harsh, but I have questions and concerns that will not get a response if you continue with this. Thank you.

50

From Dictionary.com :

pac·i·fism Pronunciation Key (ps-fzm)
n.
The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.

Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

51

OK

52

I was on the USS Cape Cod (AD-43), out of San Diego. I found out a few years ago she’d been decommissioned, which made me terribly sad. I had some good times on that pig-boat.

53

Thanks for replies everyone.

** Horseflesh **
That sounds like good advice. I think he is trying to figure out what to do before he goes forward with it. (Right now he is studying for the ASVAB.) He has written down a couple of things he might be interested in and has been chatting online with Navy people about jobs, among other things.

We have dropped in and chatted with the recruiter, and he (the recruiter) appears to be a good example of the best the military has to offer, but we will keep what you say in mind.

If he decides to do this we will get married before he is sworn in. We have been living together for a long time, and wouldn’t really consider ourselves “newlyweds”, but I understand what you’re saying. The separation part has been something we’ve talked about extensively, with some of it trying to figure out just how much separation there would be, and what amount of it various jobs require. We can accept that it would be unavoidable as a hardship at least for some of the time, but tend to think that that the benefits of being in service would outweigh the sacrifice.

Also, on mentioning jobs I have a question- both for you and everyone else- how dangerous are the occupational hazards of being on a ship? (I mean, aside from war, and aside from jobs that are dangerous like working on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, or loading bombs.) Are storms at sea a danger?

Also- on my previous questions (in case they got lost in the pacifist talk)- can anyone speak of their own process of qualifying? And does that apply for each rank that you move up?

My other question- what has been the best and worst parts of being in service?

Thanks again!

54

Very few folks are killed or seriously injured due to storms, but knocking the living crap out of your shins, or stumbling into a fire extinguisher during a 28 degree roll can smart a bit. The Navy has been going through storms for a while now, and have it mostly figured out how not to lose people. That being said, it is not uncommon for a Marine Expeditionary Unit deployment to have a death during the six month cruise. War is very dangerous, and practicing for war is only slightly less dangerous. Accidents do happen.

Best part? Being with thousands of like-minded people your same age who have gone through and are going through the same things you are. Very funny stories. Sense of accomplishment and pride.

Worst? Putting up with idiots who are above you and around you; inane and repetitive BS that doesn’t seem to make a difference in the grand scheme (at times); separation; “tremendous boredom at sea punctuated by random general quarters drills” says my honey, geobabe.

55

I spent some years on the USS Dixon (AS-37), while in San Dog. We even worked on a few of your ships while y’all were out and the Acadia was overloaded. The Dixon’s razorblades now, too. Sad, it is… Intaglio and I met and married while on that one.

56

I was assigned to the Puget Sound (AD-38) out of Norfolk. Suffice it to say that I didn’t get killed in a storm, although I do have two bad knees from bumping into knee-knockers. (I now understand why they’re called “knee-knockers”)

Robin

57

What is a “knee-knocker”?

58

Then we thank you for your opinion, now please leave the thread.

I served in the USAF (enlisted, non-flight) and would highly recommend it if your seriously considering it.

Training is a cakewalk in the USAF but you should be in some kind of physical shape and not have a problem with authority figures.

Pets may not be allowed overseas without lenghty quarantines.

Base housing is usually limited and there is a waiting list but there will be ample help in finding housing on the local economy.

You do have a say in assignments but must choose your preferences wisely. There are very few slots for Hawaii. Request general areas/regions as opposed to specific bases or locales.

Active duty personnel are less likely to be forwarded to hazardous duty areas if a conflict breaks out than reservists or guard members as long as you’re not in a critical job specialty. You’d probably stay right where you are.

Administrative jobs are more likely to have more normal M-F hours whereas maintenance jobs can be unpredictable.

You can, and should, request guaranteed training.

USAF is much better than the Navy unless you just want to be on a ship ad nauseum.

59

Could you explain “guaranteed training”? Also, japatlgt, how long have you been in, what do you do, and what do you like and dislike about it?

Thanks, I appreciate it!

60

Everyone I have ever talked to about the military has said:

“Loved it!”

“I had a blast in the Navy/AF/Army/Marines!”

“It is a GREAT experience…Everyone should go!”

Etc.

Even the two guys I talked to who were marines in Vietnam said that the war was horrible…But the marines were great.
Where are the disgruntled military? There is bound to be someone who simply hated it.

Or is it like my first job; there was so much BS, that we all bonded in spite of it, and had a blast?