They certainly seem to be more numerous to me, but I’ve never seen a survey. And they are definitely taken more seriously.
According to your location you are in Liquor City, China; so it’s to be expected that the kinds of Americans you meet ( and I am speaking of Americans ) are going to be nowhere near average. And the kinds of people I’m talking about are probably not going to be within a thousand miles of you, so it’s not surprising that you wouldn’t know anyone like that.
[emphasis mine]
The scenario works quite well here.
So - a thread that starts being about a cabal real-life, national Republican politicians and other prominent far right religious lunatics and their connections with a terrifying piece of legislation gets neatly derailed into what unidentified, unspecified but no doubt liberal, people may have thought about byegone days.
Well done everyone.
I was specifically countering the notion that homophobia is a Western import. Are you really claiming that an American Right-Wing Conspiracy is solely responsible for the legislation in a foreign country?
Noble savage? What is this, a 1970s love-in? I don’t know anyone who actually works with Native Americans, Ugandans or anyone else who honestly thinks those places were utopias full of pure-hearted people until the ‘white man’ showed up. That isn’t to say homosexuals didn’t occupy a different role, even a role of honor if not simple respect (especially in India and some Native American tribes), before Christianity was introduced. Or that women in pre-AIDS Africa were better off breastfeeding but encouraged to pay for (and collect water for) formula. Or that Northern native and Inuit communities didn’t have such massive societal problems before alcohol was introduced. It doesn’t mean everyone’s trying to turn back time and erase the evil outsider’s presence – it means they’re trying to find a way to adapt, and yes, some of the older generations balance their memories against their observations and do see things getting worse. They don’t need your liberals to do it for them.
I can understand why someone who was raised to believe Indians are dirty or Africa is a Dark Continent might do a complete 180 when they find evidence to the contrary – but eventually most people will settle somewhere in the middle. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Countering it? You’re the one who introduced it! Nobody claimed that the homophobia in Uganda came from the US. What has been pointed out is that there are factions in the US who are willing to exploit existing homophobia in the region for their own ends. All this nonsense about liberals believing that third world countries were gay rights utopias before the bad white men showed up is purely an invention of your own. Or, at least, of some right wing propaganda outlet which you appear to have swallowed wholly and unquestioningly.
Cite/further information? Hadn’t heard of that.
In fairness I have actually met people who ascribe most (or all) of Africa’s problems to Western influence (I’d love to see a thread on how much is actually the fault of the West), and I have met many who attempt to ascribe all homophobia to Christianity, which many associate with the West.
They often cite Celtic gay marriages as proof (I’ve never read a reputable publication making this claim though) that earlier peoples accepted homosexuality
Then I misunderstood the slant of the OP, and offer my apologies.
That would be the OP that doesn’t mention western countries at all, except to note that he heard the story in a Canadian newspaper?
Well, the US connection was mentioned in post #10, and Lumpy’s first post was #24, so while it wasn’t specifically mentioned in the first post, it was mentioned. Not that I agree with the guy’s post, but since he did apologize I see no reason to keep giving him shit.
You might want to check out the work of Marija Gimbutas who was an archaeologist specializing in Europe from the neolithic age until the bronze age. He theory was the prior to the Kurgen invasion Europe was largely egalitarian, homosexuals were revered, and that these societies were gynocentric. The Kurgens were a group of people that invaded from the east, and, according to Gimbutas, were responsible for bringing the patriarchy to Europe.
There’s also some Marxist theories on gender roles changing with agriculture/civilization. That women were valued in society until civilization made their contributions less valuable and therefore their status sank.
Gimbutas is respected for a lot of her earlier work but her later work meets with a lot of criticism these days. There is still a segment of the academic world that subscribe to her theories though they seem to be shrinking.
I take it there is a general belief in the efficacy of magic? (I know little about Cameroon). Do people use magic for good?
That has some parallels to the witch beliefs of Europe from 1450-1750. It was really a product of that era rather than the middle ages. Interesting stuff even sven, thank you for sharing.
Odesio
Just bumping this up to report that the death penalty is apparently being dropped from the bill. Andrew Sullivan on what’s still included in the bill.
Yes, most people believe in the efficacy of magic. I did a project among a couple dozen of the most educated and westernized people I knew, and only one did not fully believe in the power of magic.
For example, a couple years ago there was a “woman with a dead baby on her back” going from house to house, demanding a cup of water. If you give her water, she kills you. If you don’t, she poisons your well. To prevent her from coming, you must spread ashes in front of your doorway (my neighbors helpfully spread them across mine.) The TV news and newspapers breathlessly reported her travelings, as she moved from town to town and province to province. Everyone would get all worked up- “She’s been reported in Garoua now! We better get ready!”
We also had a Salem witch trials style rash of “tomber-tomber”, where schoolgirls would fall down in bewitched seizures, supposedly because of their teachers (who were from a different ethnic group.) It was pretty clearly about ethnic tensions. Anyway, this was taken so seriously that we had a question and answer session at school with our town’s top officials. The consensus was that it was real to begin with, but that some people were faking.
That sort of stuff is common. We had a girl suspended from school for making a book fly across the room!
People do use magic for good, but I think this is based on more localized beliefs. For example, an ethnic group near me was renown for it’s love charms. Different towns and ethnic groups would have their own fortune tellers, amulet salesmen, traditional healers, etc. It was generally accepted that traditional healers were better than the under trained and often dangerous western-medicine doctors.
The belief in malevolent magic was different in that people from across the nation would hold similar beliefs. It involved beliefs in specific conspiracies and organizations. While good magic was done by your local wise woman down the street, bad magic was down by massive government-commercial-ethnic cults who reaped huge monetary rewards from their ill-gotten gains.
Like the man said, democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.
Dunno about the Native American thing, but various flavors of [male] LGBT types, ranging from transvestites to male-to-female transsexuals, through eunuchs - the hijra - are considered normal and even sacred in India.
That isn’t to say they’re treated any better there now than homosexual communities in other developing countries, but there is historical evidence that they were treated with something approaching reverence in earlier times.
Isn’t that kind of like giving them a venue to practice…!
Pastor Rick Warren condemns the bill.
Even Exodus International condemns the bill. Have any American groups, even American anti-gay groups, come out in favor of it?
About time.
Rachael Maddow hes been reporting on this nightly. She has been calling out anyone involved in the events leading to this bill. Uganda was a poster child for compassionate conservatism that many were using for good PR. Conservatives were actively working to influence the politics of the country. After this bill was proposed rather then voicing opposition to the bill many have tried to wash their hands of it and pretend they have nothing to do with the politics of Uganda.
Pointing out that people like Rick Warren will have blood on their hands is the only way to make them speak out on the issue. Something I think a moral person should be doing without coaxing, their claims they had nothing to do with Uganda politics after actively influencing and meeting with their leaders is ridiculous. I congratulate the press for their efforts and thank Rachael Maddow for devoting so much time to this issue where others have not even reported on it.
Bless her heart, she means well. Does well, too, which is a big plus. Neck like a swan, mind like a steel trap, a girlish giggle and serious policy wonk cred. What’s not to love?