This scenario is workplace sexual harassment? Really?

Great Debates
21

But I digress. The following is NOT an attempt to justify the rationale. just to try and explain the reasoning.

This is how I teach the concept to the totally clueless (folks coming out of prison):

The reason some one (ie all the women who took that class with you ** Milo **) would see it as harassment, comes from details like : 1. The first out of work encounter was a group work party. The second, however, was set up by the guy to ** look ** like a group work party, but in reality was a one on one encounter, which HE knew about and SHE did not. Therefore, she had no opportunity to “say no” to a date (since she had no idea it was in essence, a date). Once there, she realizes that he “creeps her out” in some way.
2. she did ** not ** give him her home phone number and he went to some lengths to get it. While in a private situation this may be seen as romantic, at a work setting, she has limited methods of getting away from him, should she desire. (PS I had a work associate find my address by running my license plate - highly illegal and very creepy)

Would I ** personally ** have charged sexual harassment? No. Not unless I’d said something directly to the guy. Can I see it, though? yes. because of the details above.
In a wonderful world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. I get the impression that you would probably agree that the old “chases around the desk” were not a good thing. I’m sure you know that harassment still goes on, some overt, some not. I’ve had female as well as clients charged with harassment.

The short version of my S/H spiel is When dealing with the grey areas, I agree it’s impossible to attempt to read other people’s minds. (You have complete control over ** what ** you say and ** how ** you say it. You have ** zero ** control over how it’s recieved.

What may be acceptable behavior at a social gathering becomes cloudy when at work. At a social gathering, you can choose to come and go, and when to be there. At work, you don’t have those choices.

** anything ** depending on how its said and how it’s recieved ** could ** be harassment. However, you’d have to really work at it to have basic human communication be classified that way (“how was your weekend?” vs. “How was your weekend, didja get any?”) For the most part, as long as you refrain from asking co workers out on dates, refrain from risque jokes/materials, and commenting on people’s personal appearance (usually, I point out that it’s not customary for male coworkers to comment on each other’s appearance a la “hey, you’re looking really buff, you been working out?”), you probably won’t get charged with harassing.

I also state for the record that if some one asks you out on a date, while there may be some people who would claim harassment at that point, that it’s my recommondation to simply state “I don’t date coworkers” and leave it at that. If the question is asked by the same person again, that’s a problem.

22

Fillet

No apology necessary - you’re not the first. :slight_smile:

In the scenario describe, not only did she not tell him to back off, she didn’t tell her manager that there was a problem. How is the company supposed to take any action if they don’t know there’s a problem?

And I never said it was her “fault”. But with the information given in the scenario, it’s possible for Jack to still think she’s interested even if he’s not a psycho-stalker. So in the situation given, yes, I think she still bears some responsibility because it’s possible he doesn’t know she’s not interested. Really, how hard is it to say “Please stop sending me personal email and voicemail - it makes me uncomfortable. I’m not interested in pursuing anything with you.” In the scenario, he called her at home - gee, there was a fine opportunity to let him know she’s not interested. If she can’t bring herself to do it directly, fine; bring it to management. If she does either or both of these, then of course she has no responsibility if the problem continues.

23

Porcupine,

I agree that the OP sets up a fairly nebulous situation, and that Jill should really tell SOMEBODY that she’s unhappy; one can’t reasonably expect either Jack or her boss to be a mindreader. But then again, not everyone in this world is as reasonable as we are on this board. :slight_smile:

As wring pointed out, Jack does do some odd things that could make at least some folks feel put upon. I think that Milo’s company deliberately chose this extreme example in order to encourage folks away from any behavior that might fall into a gray area, especially given that people resort so readily these days to lawsuits to resolve these kinds of problems. No company wants the expense and unwanted publicity of a sexual harrassment lawsuit, even one that turns out to be frivolous… by then, the money’s spent and the public relations damage has been done.

24

Going by that story alone, I would say, no it is not sexual harrassment, and for only one reason:

!!She didn’t tell him to stop!!

That was the basic idea I was taught in schooling.

If your being sexually harrassed you have to tell them to stop(or tell someone else to tell them for you) and if the continues it is groungs for sexual harrassment.

25

Frankly, this only works if you aren’t afraid of the person (either physically or because of implied economic harm). that’s why the rules are different at work places than in social situations. In a social gathering, you have control over where you are, who you chose to be with etc. At work, you don’t.

In a social situation if you tell the guy to get lost, you don’t run the risk of having to sit next to him 8 hours a day 5 days a week, or have him signing your work evaluation.

26

I once worked with a floorman who, knowing that I have religious objections to sex outside of marriage, was constantly making comments and suggestions of a sexual nature to me. He actually went to the extreme of telling me I should go to a married male coworker he knew I had a crush on and tell him to “do me”. I was extremely uncomfortable with this, would try to change the subject, and the more I tried to avoid talking about sexual issues, the more vulgar he became.

I never reported him for sexual harassment. Why? Because I had never told him to “cut it out” although I should have. I mainly just tried to avoid conversation with him. If I had told him to knock it off, and he had continued to make these types of suggestions and comments to me, I would have considered it harassment and reported him. And I would have considered it more religious than sexual harassment, because he was aware of my religious beliefs, and made a point of telling me that my religion was outmoded.

As it was, I considered him an annoyance, nothing more. You shouldn’t be able to make a valid claim of harassment because somebody annoys you.

27

Generally I think we’re in agreement. But in this scenario, they are co-workers. If Jack was the supervisor that changes things, since he is a position of authority, and there is an implied “quid pro quo.” And if Jill is afraid of Jack, she should tell management. She didn’t. It’s not like he threatened her. He just wants to see her nekkid. :wink:

What if the positions were reversed, and Jill was pursuing Jack? Would anyone see this differently? (I suspect not, as Dopers seem to generally be a pretty enlightened bunch.) Of course, she wouldn’t send flowers - maybe a giant box of condoms. :smiley:

28

Talked with the boss. She said it’s a small portion of her business law course, she is not an expert, and the book is not very helpful (them lawyers are always trying to cover their butts!).

But(t) she was of the opinion that this pretty clearly was harrassment, because Jack misrepresented a work-related situation, the social gathering of workmates. And his subsequent actions could reasonably be considered to create a hostile work environment.

That said, she doesn’t think the company is liable for much in the way of damages. No indication that they either actually know or should have known. She suggested that if Jill asks to be relocated, they should probably accomadate her. She also said there is a reasonableness standard in assessing harrassment. However, it is a reasonable person of the gender of the complainant. So a guy bothering a woman can’t say, “It wouldn’t have bothered me or my buddies.”

Oh yeah, she said I have a cute butt too! I married one sharp cookie!

29

If the company doesn’t know or couldn’t know, I find it ridiculous that any judge or jury would the company liable. However, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

30

Damn. s/b “would hold the company liable.”

31

When I read the OP, my first thought was “The guy is a stalker”. Jill has ample reason to be put off, even to be a bit apprehensive, if not fearful.

I do think she has a responsibility to say “knock it off” at least once. And she should be upfront with her supervisor. In the OP, she makes no mention of feeling uncomfortable due to the actions of a co-worker.

Jack should be sent packing, pronto!

32

Oh c’mon, spooje. Stalking? The guy should be sent packing?

As you yourself pointed out, Jill hasn’t told him she’s not interested - after initially showing interest herself.

What’s stalking and what’s courtship?

“When the recipient feels threatened or uncomfortable, it’s stalking,” you might say. But how is clueless Jack to know that, or Jill’s supervisor?

You aren’t alone in feeling the way you feel. According to the sexual harassment speaker, cases very similar to this are being tried and won, against both the Jacks and the companies. I just think it’s silly.

Jill is too timid and wants to avoid confrontation, so she doesn’t tell Jack or her boss. But she’s willing to sue them? Trust me; that makes them both feel more uncomfortable and confronted.

33

Ok, perhaps stalking is a bit harsh.

I don’t think there’s a lawsuit here (the company’s done nothing wrong, and had no knowledge). But to my mind, none of the three examples are appropriate. I mean, he lured her under false pretenses. He should not have had her home phone number. IMHO, it is presumptious and rude to call someone without first asking for their phone number. And the “I hope I someday get to see what it looks like underneath” line is way out of bounds with a co-worker where no personal relationship has been established.

In my company, a former employee is suing for harrasment, complaining about very similar circumstances to the listed examples. (the differences being she did tell management and they did nothing)