I don’t think, however, that you can compare the Destroyer armour with anything Superman could get his hands on. It was built to fight the celestials and is vastly overpowered. Further, Thor has used his armour in the past (during the Simonson era for a number of reasons) and when figthing over-powered opponents. As for heat, well Thor managed to survive in the center of the sun and never had a problem with Firelord’s heat.
Thor is also very fast and a very intelligent fighter. Thor’s hammer has destroyed mountain ranges in the past and is capable of knocking a rather large hole in the armour of the biggest celestial in the Marvel Universe. Thor has summoned continent sized storms so I doubt even Superman could dodge all of those lightning bolts. Looking at the effect Captain Marvel’s bolts had on Superman during Kingdom Come (not canon but appropriate in this context) Thor could significantly damage Superman before delivering the Coup de Grace of a major hammer blow.
Thor also has the ability to take energy from planets and stars and use that in a concentrated burst of energy that would give even Superman pause (if it didn’t kill him outright). He can also add to the the ability to “draw on his Godly essence” and focus even more power through the hammer. Thor did this to damage even Exitar who is the greatest of the Celestials (and someone who could destroy Superman with a thought) amongst many others (magog, dark gods, the destroyer, ego, galactus). The point is, if the chips were down then Thor can take it to a totally other level. Indeed, we aren’t even considering his ability to move Superman to another dimension if it suited him (I’m also thinking of another trick Thor played on the Juggernaught when he created a vortext that eliminated all external sources of power to the Juggernaught, he could do the same to Superman and severely weaken him). Thor’s arrogance was the basis of the first comic and a lot has changed since then. He is a very capable fighter and would recognize the danger that Superman posed. A similar character to Superman (a copy almost) in the Marvel universe would the Shiar called Gladiator and the alternate earth character Hyperion. Both have identical powers to Superman and Thor has beaten both of them.
Lastly, on the point of Thor’s magical abilities I would note that Dr. Strange has used Thor’s hammer as a power source for his spells and that Thor has summoned storms in places that there are no clouds or even an atmosphere to summon such a storm (Hades, Negative Zone, Dormmamu’s dimension, the sun, Galactus’ home ship etc.). I think it is safe to conclude that Thor’s storms are magical by their very nature. Based on all of the above I think that the God of Thunder defeats an alien who happens to live on earth.
‘Vastly Overpowered’ sounds about right. The point of my question was : Why doesn’t he use it in every single battle? Nevertheless, Superman has a similar capability - when the Galactus-equivalent Imperiex invaded the Earth sector, Superman super-charged himself with a dive into the sun to trash the interloper.
He’s not as fast as Superman. Really. As for Intelligent? No… I’d call Thor ‘canny’, but not ‘intelligent.’ Thor’s hammer has destroyed mountain ranges, holed a celestial’s armor, blah blah blah. Superman wrestled the most physically powerful angel of the Host to a standstill. Superman’s fist can destroy mountain ranges.
And Captain Marvel’s bolts are a point in his favor, actually. For all his so-called vulnerability to magic, he withstood strike after strike from that lightning. He was disoriented, and bleeding a tiny bit. He still had the presence of mind to appropriately counteract the tactic, and enough invulnerability to spare to survive the massive nuclear explosion that followed - and I believe the only others at Ground Zero that managed that were protected by Green Lantern - and to boot, he looked pretty much entirely unfazed by the physical effects of the blast.
And this would be a disastrous tactic for the Thunder God, as it would feed Superman’s powers, increasing them.
Bolding mine. Better nigh-omnipotent beings than him have tried.
Bolding mine again. Dead wrong. It’d take hours before Superman’s abilities dropped off from lack of sun exposure. His power is internal. As for the other dimension - well, he’d have to connect with that effect, first. Thor can take it to another level, but Superman’s already at that level.
Really? How’s that? Would his mystic Thor-sense tingle and tell him all of Superman’s powers, most of which are completely unobvious?
Really? Hmm… Gladiator’s powers are different, at least with regard to their source. As Gladiator’s confidence wanes, so do his powers. Superman doesn’t have that drawback. Hyperion’s closer, but he’s not as strong or fast as Superman simply because he has the same kinds of powers.
Safe to conclude? No. Hardly. Let me give you an example. Dr. Strange is in a dimension were no solids exist. He summons a bucket of water. Is the water magical, simply because magic brought it there, and because water doesn’t ordinarily exist there? No.
Some excellent points but I do believe that all of them can be countered. I think the Destroyer armour is just too powerful. Thor doesn’t use it very often because there is a danger that he could be consumed by the armour itself. For these reasons I think we can discount the Destroyer armour.
Thor being canny is actually a very good thing. Most boxers aren’t that intelligent but they are canny fighters. Again, if you have ever been in a real fight then you know that the crafty, better fighter wins. Thor is the better fighter and, as you admitted himself, he is a canny fighter so I think he figures out how to beat Superman. Thor is the epitome of the Viking warrior ethos. He is, by his very nature, the ultimate fighter. With all due respect to Superman I think I would rate a mythical warrior higher on the scale than I would a Superman.
Thor is actually extremely fast and can discern fast moving objects such as Quicksilver or the Celtic speed god (Cabal I think he was called). Thor can also accelerate when needed. Actually Superman looked in fairly bad shape when Captain Marvel hit him with the lightning bolts. His eyes were blood red and he was bleeding from his nose and ears. The difference here is that Thor would hit him with several hundred or even thousand bolts and then hit him with his hammer. Also, Thor defeated Captain Marvel in the terrible Marvel/DC cross-over. Given the effects that all that lightning would have on Superman coupled with a hammer blow I think you can see where Superman may be hurt.
Further arguments that Thor’s lightning is magical in nature is the effect it has on certain beings. It can hurt the likes of Atum and Mephisto whereas normal energy attacks do not phase them. Even the absorbing man admitted that Thor’s lightning was not like electricity when he absorbed it.
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And this would be a disastrous tactic for the Thunder God, as it would feed Superman’s powers, increasing them.
Bolding mine. Better nigh-omnipotent beings than him have tried.
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I doubt it. The Celestials aren’t like other super-beings insofar as they never seem to actuall have a motive that we can understand. They appear to operate on a totally different level than any other beings in universe (other than the Living Tribunal) so I think they could wipe out Superman instantly.
If Thor were to transport Superman to another dimension, away from a yellow sun, then I have no doubt that Thor could slug it out with Superman for a few hours until he killed him. Alternatively, he could just transport Superman into a blackhole (like he did with Gladiator) or to the other end of the Universe and none of us would hear from Superman again. He could also just transport him to Asgard and fight it out on Thor’s home turf where he basically can’t be killed.
Thor could figure out Superman’s power level from the first punch. He routinely figures out enemies powers and reacts accordingly. Indeed, it is one of the first things that he does with the Avengers so he can see how much power that he needs to dish out.
Hyperion’s powers are indentical to Superman’s. He was created as a Marvel clone of the Man in Steel. What am I missing? Also, I think Superman has been weakened significantly since pretty much everyone was sick of the fact (even Superman fans) that he was invunerable to everything. Last time I checked Doomsday beat him to near-death so I wouldn’t just laugh off Thor’s hammer so quickly. Thor’s hammer is magical as well so that augments it’s already impressive powers. I still think that a massive storm would stun Superman and then the hammer would finish him off. Wizzard seems to think so as well
I assume we aren’t including Thor with Odin Power because I believe that that Thor could take even the pre-Byrne Superman.
Seperate issue entirely. What do you think of Smallville? I saw it for the first time last night and I liked it. Quick question though, does he fight other super-powered villans?
On an episode of The Super Friends, we saw Superman pushing the Earth back into its proper orbit after a Jupiter-sized giant picked it up and carried it out to around the distance of Saturn.
I never said Superman wasn’t canny as well. Quite the contrary, I think Superman’s both intelligent AND canny.
I think what some people seem to miss when thinking of Superman is that he is the foundation of his own mythos - that of the Superhero. (There were some earlier figures like Doc Savage - enhanced humans that were a sort of precursor… but I digress). He’s the epitome of superhero. And Superheroes are the demigods of the modern world. Instead of Hercules and Perseus, we have Superman and Batman.
I’m not saying he’s a slowpoke. I’m saying that Superman can race the Flash with a degree of success - he’s that fast. (as witnessed in recent issues of the Flash) And Quicksilver is orders of magnitude slower than the Flash.
I submit that the magical lightning of Shazam, powered by the essences of six Gods, is more potent by far than that conjured by mighty Mjolnir. So potent, in fact, that it was able to destroy a shell that had been hardened against all known metahuman powers - that of the bomb dropped in KC.
Thor did defeat Captain Marvel in the Marvel/DC Crossover - by a fluke, as I recall, but I haven’t read the issue in a long while.
Only that last bit seems like relevant evidence that it might be magical.
Oh, I see. When Superman’s nigh-unbeatable by some method, he’s ridiculous and boring. And yet, Thor’s Destroyer armor is an interesting plot device? To address your points - Darkseid’s Omega Effect is not solar energy. Green Lantern’s ring produces hard light sculptures - not solar energy. And why would the energy Thor steals from a star or planet suddenly become magical?
Spurious. Beings other than Thor have opposed the Celestials and not been wiped out. Thro himself could be wiped out, if they had such power. Either they do not possess such power, or they do not use it.
This assumes Thor’s mystic Thor-sense tells him exactly what Superman’s powers are fueled by?
Right, cause nobody ever heard from Gladiator again. :rolleyes: I’m guessing you haven’t read the last two issues of the current She-Hulk book.
He might be able to figure out how strong Superman is, and possibly how tough, but that doesn’t tell him the source of Superman’s powers, his list of vulnerabilities, or the plethora of additional capabilities that Superman has. (See : Every vision power ever.)
Hyperion, Gladiator, Apollo of the Authority, and Mr. Majestic of the Wildstorm universe are all Superman knockoffs. Different versions of the Man of Steel. Does that mean they all have the exact same power set, and the exact same levels of each of those powers? No. Each of them is Super-Strong, but without other evidence, we cannot assume they are each exactly the same strength. Heck, if you want to play the ‘clone’ game, then a knockoff of Thor got destroyed in a nuclear meltdown in Justice League International; the DCU’s own incarnation of the Thunder God got used by Hitler during WW2 and manhandled by the Justice Society… neither of which bodes well for Thor’s capability in dealing with the Kryptonian.
He was weakened back in 1986. He’s still stronger than Thor, but now Thor actually stands a chance. If he’s lucky.
Doomsday is a genetically engineered being that has similar powers to Kryptonians and a massive adaptive and regenerative capacity. So yeah, he and Superman beat each other to death. Despite the fact that Doomsday’s abilities were arguably more numerous. Despite the fact that Doomsday had centuries of fighting experience. It came down to a tie.
As for the boys at Wizard - I wouldn’t pay too much attention. Their goals are to be funny and sell magazines. And Thor beating Superman? Friggin’ hilarious.
The Destroyer does come with a price but it still is extremely powerful.
Thor is, however, the ultimate fighter because he was the epitome of battle and violence in Norse mythology. With all due respect, I would not accord comics the title of modern mythology. Thor was an actual religious figure something Superman et al. will never be (nor should they be). Further, I don’t believe Superman’s effect on people is anything to compare to what Thor meant to the pre-Christian Scandinavians. To be sure, Superman is well known but that doesn’t mean he has had any real effect on our society. He was is a cultural icon whereas Thor was worshipped as an actual God. He really meant something, in a profound way. to a large group of people. Hell, we get Thursday from him! If you would put Superman, a comic book character up with that then I guess Elvis is the messiah.
“I submit that the magical lightning of Shazam, powered by the essences of six Gods, is more potent by far than that conjured by mighty Mjolnir. So potent, in fact, that it was able to destroy a shell that had been hardened against all known metahuman powers - that of the bomb dropped in KC.”
I submit that you are in error. Thor’s lightning, as I have shown, clearly is more than just electircity based on it’s ability to hurt beings that are otherwise unaffected by energy attacks. This also goes to the nature of Thor himself and his hammer. One must look at Mjolnir as one would look at Excalibur. It is a magical artifact. It is one of the most well-known magical artifacts in our history. Thor, as a mythical God is magic personified so to suggest that Thor isn’t magical misses the point entirely.
I believe Thor just defeated Captain Marvel. He dumped a ferris wheel on him in the end. Don’t think there was a fluke involved but then it has been a long time!
“Oh, I see. When Superman’s nigh-unbeatable by some method, he’s ridiculous and boring. And yet, Thor’s Destroyer armor is an interesting plot device? To address your points - Darkseid’s Omega Effect is not solar energy. Green Lantern’s ring produces hard light sculptures - not solar energy. And why would the energy Thor steals from a star or planet suddenly become magical?”
That’s not what I meant. The Destroyer has been with Thor for over 25 years now. It regularly appears in the comic so it’s not just an obscure power that I have taken from a random issue of Thor. I think it is fair to say that this is not the first time the charge that Superman is overpowered has been thrown around. Indeed, it was considered to be one of the reasons that Byrne was allowed to modify him due to declining sales. Frank Miller (allegedly, I have no cite for this) detests Superman for this very reason.
I digress, however, the energy that Thor would be throwing at Superman would not be solar energy. It would simply be energy that Thor would be using to augment the magical attack coming from his hammer. So Thor can focus a sun and/or a planet through his hammer, add his own Godly essence in what can only be described as a major magical attack and you don’t think that this would effect Superman? He shattered a planet with an attack like this! It wasn’t a solar blast as it was just jucing up Mjolnir’s own magical attack! If it didn’t disintegrate the man of steel it would at least cause him enough problems that Thor could follow up with a coup de grace.
The Celestials really are different from most other super-villians as they don’t really care about anyone beneath them. When Thor finally bothered them then they simply expelled him with just a thought (after 2+ issues of Thor throwing everything at them). Other than the Dreaming Celestial, their motives are basically unknown. If they so chose, Superman would die.
Thor actually rescued Gladiator so that’s a moot point. He did, however, send the Juggernaut to the other side of the Universe, stranding him there for all time (well, until he was needed in another Marvel comic). He did this because he recognized the danger the Juggernaught posed. He would recognize that same danger with Supes (again, going back his thousands of years of battle-training and the fact that he is a God he may pick up on this sort of thing). He could do the same to Superman and even Superman can’t travel faster than light speed so we wouldn’t be seeing the man of steel again.
Hyperion appears to have identical powers to Superman. That was the reason he was created by Mark Grunewald I believe.
Thor has so many powers at his disposal that I think he could cause Superman major problems. Indeed, I think he can beat Superman.
“As for the boys at Wizard - I wouldn’t pay too much attention. Their goals are to be funny and sell magazines. And Thor beating Superman? Friggin’ hilarious.”
Actually I think Wizzard have written some good things so I don’t think this is appropriate at all.
It appears that there is a preview feature as well…oh dear. Actually, I’d take the current Thor with the Odin power against the Superman of any era. Sound fair
And that’s wonderful. I don’t think Thor would get Superman to ‘hold on just a sec, while I go pick up my unbeatable armor from the dry cleaners.’ Or, to put it in Thor-speak, “I say thee nay, enow thee bibbidi-bobbidi-boo. Thou.”
The Marvel Comics Thor is a poor imitation of the mythological Norse Thor. He is original-flavor Thor, filtered through the lens of the Superhero mythology, to get something entirely different, who happens to be blond and who happens to speak in Elizabethan English. And whether you’d accord them the title or not - superheros are the exact same thing as mythological heroes. Like Perseus, or Hercules. Who weren’t worshipped, by the way. And as a culutral icon, Superman’s had some effect on society over the years - he’s gotten the cover of Time Magazine, and is one of the single most recognizible fictional characters in the world, right up there with Mickey Mouse.
No. Thor is not an intrinsically magical being. The DCU Gods don’t meet that definition either. They’re often capable of wielding magic, but it’s not like they have a chewy magic coating. And let’s clarify - you’re asserting that the lightning summoned by Mjolnir, admittedly a magical artifact, created by one god, Odin - is more powerful than the mystical lightning empowering Shazam, which is tied to the essences of, among other mythologicals, Zeus.
Hmm. I was thinking there was a hokey moment with mystic lightning involved.
It was John Byrne who re-wrote Superman’s powers to clarify them and, intentionally or not, gave rise to the whole solar-power absorption deal. Before, he was sun-fueled, but he had never, to my recollection, been demonstrated to be able to absorb it rapidly. Byrne’s toned-down Superman powers are responsible for this particular strength of Superman’s, as far as I can tell.
And no, it’s not the first time that Superman’s been called overpowerful. Funny thing is, you don’t hear many people throwing that charge around about Thor, do you? I wonder why that is…
Even assuming that the energy was somehow mystically transformed so that it was no longer ‘solar’ energy, Thor would still have to connect with it.
And I’d also like to note again at this juncture the events of Avengers vs. JLA #2, where Superman dropped Thor. Kurt Busiek is no slouch in the writing department, and had written the Avengers for an extended period - he’s familiar with the capabilities of both heroes. Thor had no time to run off and get the Destroyer, or to stand and absorb a planet’s energy (which I’ve never seen him do, myself - but which I imagine takes a moment) because he was fighting an opponent as powerful as or superior to himself.
It’s also worth noting that in the Avengers beatdown on Superman that follows, an exhausted Superman’s skin is shown to be so tough that Hercules’s enchanted adamantine mace actually is damaged as it strikes him. A mace that has survived direct hits from … you guessed it, Thor’s hammer.
And if they so chose, Thor would die.
Actually, one, Superman has friends capable of FTL speed that might retrieve him relatively easily. Green Lantern, for instance. And it’s sort of nebulous whether or not the Man of Steel can break the lightspeed barrier in a vacuum - in the recent relaunch of Adam Strange, Superman took a quick jaunt out to Rann to check on that planet’s status for Adam - and that’s about a 9 LY round-trip. It’s not clear whether or not he used external aid.
Mark Gruenwald didn’t create Hyperion. That honor goes to Roy Thomas. He was created as a sort of homage to Superman. The ‘reason’ wasn’t ‘I need a guy exactly as strong and tough as Superman!’ It was ‘Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if the Avengers fought the Justice League? Well, we can’t get them, so let’s create our own homages.’ The Squadron Sinister/Supreme was not identical to the Justice League, however. Merely very similar.
Obviously, that’s what you think. But variety of capabilities does not equate to potency.
This is a bit pedantic and I have anything else to add (other than Thor could totally kicks Superman’s ass*) but Mjolnir wasn’t created by Odin… it was made by dwarven (or was it sylvan? not quite sure) metalsmiths commisioned by Odin. Bit of a difference.
*No sense in arguing with me. Check out the user name.
Don’t know how mjolnir was forged in the Marvel Universe, but in the Norse myths, it was forged by the dwarves Brok and Eitri. While Brok was working the beloows on the forge, Loki took the form of a fly and bit Brok several times trying to ruin their effort. Mjolnir, as a result, came out with a disproportionately short handle. It was still a formidable weapon. Thor himself needed to wear iron gloves and a magic belt that doubled his strength before he was able to use it.
My recollection was that the enchantment on Mjolnir was crafted by Odin, at least in the Marvel U. 'Twas he who inscribed the ‘Whosever wields this hammer…’, and he who managed to create duplicates for every Beta-Ray Tom, Dick, or Bill who came along.
It was a fluke. I’m a Big Red Cheese fanboy, and I remember how it pissed me off.
Thor dropped a Ferris Wheel on Captain Marvel. The latter was unhurt, but it would take a moment to free himself, which may have counted as a loss under the rules of the competition. So he turned into Billy to squirm out faster.
Thor noticed the lightning, so when Billy tried to turn back, Thor channeled Shazam’s lightning into the hammer. This threw Thor for a loop, and sent Mjolnir flying from his hands, but it did prevent the transformation.
Billy then, instead of summonning the lightning again and whooping on a dazed and disarmed Thor, surrendered. I guess he really does need that Wisdom of Solomon.
This doesn’t mean much, as that series sucked in general. For example, Mjolnir was recovered by Wonder Woman, who gained Thor’s powers. Instead of using it to whup on Storm, she threw it aside. Fair enough, but Storm then proceeeded to beat her! Wonder Woman! A Superman-class metahuman, after WW managed to get a punch in. Also, Wolverine beat Lobo, which is just dumb. Fights were decided by sheer popularity, but were rigged even then, as A-listers were put up against C-list heroes.
Thanks, Menocchio. That fits with what I recall - and shows firm evidence that the lightning Marvel uses to transform is more potent than Mjolnir’s usual fare to boot.
