I’m very happy that we’re moving towards this as a community. Boosting “non-normative” or non-conforming trans people has been extremely helpful for my mental health and self-esteem.
I don’t think he’s done enough research to have any kind of coherent opinion about it; so far as he knows, he’s never met or spoken with a transgender person (ironically enough, he probably has…), and it’s not something he wants to have anything to do with. He probably latched onto the idea that transgender people are confused, misguided, or just plain crazy, and he’s good with that.
Thanks for saying this, I was thinking the same thing.
There are a lot of shades of trans, and creating a very high standard for how “extremely passable” a transwoman or transman could be really leaves out a large swath of the population, most of whom are the ones who most need our collective support and encouragement, to be whoever and however they are comfortable.
Heh, I’d never seen it put in these terms before. Does this mean that trans folks need to be guaranteed two Senators and three electoral votes, to avoid tyranny of the majority?
But to make a serious attempt at an answer to the OP: I think that a lot of folks don’t have any clear idea of what gender identity actually is. In fact, I’m one of them: If you ask me what my gender identity is, I’m liable to answer “How would I know?”. But I’m willing to take other peoples’ word for it that it is something that’s very real and very important, at least to them.
I imagine, though, that there are some people who are just as confused as I about what gender identity means, but who think that because they can’t understand it, nobody can (heck, if there are people who can think that way about math and physics, there are people who can think that way about anything).
What really puzzles me is people who very clearly do have a notion of gender identity, but who are nonetheless intolerant of trans people. For instance, someone who can claim that God is definitely unambiguously male, despite not having any anatomy or DNA (or, I suppose, having all of the anatomy and DNA in the Universe). Why can’t they accept that a person can be male in the same sense that God is (whatever that sense is), despite possibly having a female body?
Me too, partly because it’s healthier for cisgender people as well. If we make acceptance of male or female identity strictly contingent on looking very stereotypically “feminine” or “masculine”, then not-entirely-gender-conforming cisgender women and men are going to get swept up in the “restroom purges” too.
Yeah. I think a lot of us cisgender people have no idea what our gender identity feels like—I don’t either—just because it parallels our physical sex and our assigned birth gender so closely that we mistake it for empirical physical knowledge. What does it feel like to identify as female? I don’t know, it feels like me! My femaleness is just obvious to myself: look, this body has all the female parts, how could I not feel I identify as female? Anybody who has a body like this but doesn’t think of themselves as female must just be delusional, because gender identity is just a conscious recognition of physical reality, right?
Wrong: as you point out, there are plenty of things that have a real existence even if some of us don’t understand them. RR, I really mulled over something you said in your “Ask the trans woman” thread from a couple months ago:
THAT RIGHT THERE about the “always felt empty”. I think it’s fascinating, but not at all something I could have figured out for myself, how your brain’s instinctive sense of your body didn’t (used to) match with your brain’s conscious empirical sense of your body. You are not delusional—you saw and knew that there were no breasts on your chest, you weren’t hallucinating the physical presence of something that didn’t (yet) exist—but you had an instinctive sense of something missing. Ghost breasts. 
I really wish that there was some kind of cognitive “neurological illusion” experiment that could temporarily give cis people something like that sense of physical mismatch so we could understand the subjective experience of gender identity and gender dysphoria a little better. Because I think our profound ignorance of the nature of this kind of brain/body divergence is ultimately behind a lot of transphobic insistence that “there’s no such thing as transgender”.
I don’t have much to add, except to say that I’m glad to be a member of this community of rational and accepting people.
My daughter is transgender. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought this possible. But it’s a fact, and love and acceptance is paramount.
My instinct is to disagree with you. I think that what it does is to really shake up their assumptions and throw those assumptions into stark relief. First ask, should this obvious man use the woman’s room? How would you like that guy going to the bathroom with your daughter (which always seems to be their biggest fear)? Maybe then they start to understand that there is a spectrum of gender and sexuality.
On the other hand, almost everything I’ve learned on the subject, I’ve learned from here – I barely know one transwoman who I used to work with 20 years ago and otherwise have no interaction with that community. So, I’ll trust the feedback I’ve received here.
I still think the slides would be a good idea, to show the huge variety of cis- and trans-women and men, and really highlight the existence of gender spectrum.
Confession – if you tell me you are a girl but my gut perceives you are a boy, I’ll probably use your name and avoid gendering you at all. I apologize for this weakness on my part, but I’m old and it’s really hard to change old habits.
Interesting. By that standard, I have male hands. I identify as a woman, fwiw, although not very strongly.
Honestly, I have very little gender identity. I think if I were 20 I would identify as non-binary, or possibly even trans. Other than the breasts, which have always felt like they were in the way, I’m quite satisfied with my body, though. So I “get” the idea that someone might have have gross bodily dysphoria, but I don’t really “get” the people who have some internal sense of gender unrelated to how they feel about their body. But my daughter (who is cis) feels strongly female. She delights in female protagonists in a way that I never cared about, for instance. I can acknowledge that there are some parts of the human experience that go over my head.
I think it depends where in the conversation you are. With someone who has never seriously considered the possibility that there might be any ambiguity about sex = gender = genes = presentation I like to bring up the existence of natural hermaphodrites, and the fact that Talmud recognizes that there are people who don’t neatly fit into either the “male” or “female” category, and that there are whole cultures that recognize other genders and have forever. Those trans people who completely “pass” in the gender they identify with can be part of that initial exposure to the idea that this whole gender thing is a little more complicated than you might have realized.
When dealing with someone who has thought about the idea but has decided to be an asshole, I think that’s less useful. And most of the real problems that real people have dealing with society and gender come up when someone doesn’t exactly conform to the binary gender ideals.
If you look like a guy but identify as female, which public bathroom should you use? I mean, I think people of good will don’t care, but there are nasty dangerous people out there. Most men don’t sexually harass women. Almost all women have been sexually harassed. I hope we have reached the point where most cis people don’t harass trans people. But I’m sure that trans people still have to live their lives assuming they will face a certain level of harassment. So do you use the ladies’ room? The men’s room? Do you look for that unisex “family and handicapped” restroom? Maybe you use the ladies’ room at work, the men’s room at the theater, and the unisex room at the airport. That’s why I think the law should be generous, and let people use the facilities they are most comfortable with RIGHT NOW, under whatever conditions apply at the moment.
I’m not sure if this is on- or off- topic, but I find it helps to shoot down this assumption:
Because actually, no, not everyone is born with either XX or XY chromosomes, not all babies are born with genitals that can be easily categorized as male or female *and *there are other relevant conditions like being immune to testosterone (such people can have XY chromosomes yet are physically female in most ways).
I realize that this is not the same thing as trans, of course, but it can be useful to point out that, even just talking about physiology, it’s just not true to say humans all fit into one of two buckets. That’s a good starting point for then discussing psychological gender (gender identity) and the ridiculously overblown non-problem of where people go pee.
This suggestion reminds me what abolitionists did to convince white people that slavery was wrong. They would show photographs of the whitest-looking slave children they could find. Of course that helped white people see the horror of slavery…but only because it reminded whites that if kids who looked like that could be enslaved, so could their kids. It didn’t actually convince white people that black people were just as human as they were, though.
Okay, I’ll bite.
I feel very very slightly annoyed when people present an ambiguous gender, or when their gender is highly ambiguous in context. Like when they look and dress and sound non-gender specific.
The reason for my annoyance is that I feel that they are laying a sort of social trap: I will probably use the wrong pronoun and If I do, they become all huffy and I’ll be labeled a bigot and impolite and it will all be awkward as hell.
I’m perfectly fine with people being non-gender-binary; but I do feel that as long as the default setting is that in general,
- people are insulted if you treat them as the wrong gender, and
- people look at me funny if, out of precaution I would use those new fangled genderless pronouns, and…
- it is also impolite to just call everyone “Hey you”…
…then the polite thing to do would be for genderqueer people to make clear how to to adress them. So, to treat them as either male, female, or something else (specified as needed). How? I don’t know. Maybe a symbol on a chain, if they don’t want to go the traditional route of dress, hairstyle, acessories, make-up ? A short sentence when introducing themselves, like people do in writing on fora? “Preferred pronoun: she/her or they/they”.
Okay. Now tell me my feeling of awkwardness is not the problem of LGBT people, that it is a temporary problem, and their discomfort at having to tick a narrow box is much bigger then my social discomfort. I even agree.
But the OP wanted to know why people might have a problem with transgenders, and I tried to answer the question honestly.
I think I understand where they’re coming from. I hesitate to post this because it’s not my own view—I hope I know better—but it’s what I could imagine a stupider or more naive or less empathetic version of myself saying:
Once you say “I have XY sex chromosomes” and “I have a penis”—you’re a male, end of story. For you to “present as” or dress as or act like a female is either you pretending to be something you’re not (like a child pretending to be a dinosaur), or it’s a mental disorder where you think you’re something you’re not, just as if you thought you were Napoleon or Superman or Jesus Christ. You may “present as” Superman; you may wear the red-and-blue outfit; but you still can’t fly.
It’s pretty easy to talk to people without their gender ever needing to come up. Nobody’s laying a trap, but if their gender is unclear…it’s not that difficult to just sidestep it, right? Talking to people in the second person (“you”) is kind of the default for social interactions. If you’ve got to reference someone in the third person and that person is there, just say “[person’s name] should do [whatever]”…and if you don’t know the name, you can always just ask “what was your name again?” I’m not trying to make you feel dense or anything, but isn’t this pretty straightforward?
I see this frequently, so it is in fact a thing. Once I went to a veterinarian and …they…were wearing a button that said “my pronoun is [something].” (Unfortunately I’m forced to just say “they” because I can’t remember what it was anymore.)
I think I can kinda relate to what Maastricht said. I never considered myself hostile to transgendered people, but I admit to being frustrated a time or two by the apparent dismay whenever I used the wrong pronoun, which is something I’ve encountered a few times. But I get it - it can’t be easy to keep having to fight that battle for respect and acceptance and it doesn’t matter if the slips are unintentional - they still hurt.
I admire the courage it takes to be honest about gender identity, and I wish all those who arrive at that awareness all the best, and they’ve got my support.
I don’t think anyone on the SDMB is going to say they’re “Sick of transgender people,” so to whom is the OP addressed?
I will freely state that I am absolutely opposed to transwomen playing in women’s sports, especially if they have undergone no medical intervention at all related to transition. It’s preposterous to have physical men playing women’s sports. That is, though, one pretty small and specific issue in the grand scheme of things, and despicable jerkwads like Rachel McKinnon are not representative of all trans people, as much as they may want to be.
I find that pronouns are hard. Fortunately, in English, the first and second person pronouns are all genderless. (I, we, you) so I rarely mess up someone’s pronouns to their face.
I have seen pronoun-preference badges. Mostly, they say “they/them” or they say the pronoun you would have assumed.
Grey’s Anatomy just tackled this last week, with an older doctor presented with a genderfluid person who uses they/them pronouns and he got gently taken to school by some of the younger doctors–it was a nice little lesson, kindly told and even if you don’t normally watch the show I’d urge you to check out this episode because it’s a good one for those of us who aren’t genderfluidity natives (to coin a phrase!) and who can feel a little awkward trying to keep up with societal changes of this nature.
One experiment I’ve been trying for some time now is to remove as much gender specific language from my vocabulary as possible and to see how that changes my thinking–answer is that it does, quite a bit, and in a good way. Entrenched language patterns enforce entrenched thought patterns and vice versa, so being conscious of how much gendered language you use is helpful in understanding the systemic categorization and enforcement of gender identities in our society.
Bottom line is that it hurts no one to leave space for those who aren’t comfortable with rigid binary roles to carve out a spot that feels comfortable to them–this lowers the ambient anxiety level of society a bit and helps us all feel a bit less stressed. It’s tempting to grasp at the nebulous certainty that people had in the past regarding gender roles on the basis of “times were simpler then” but the fact is that they were only simple on the surface and the emotional and physical toll those gender roles inflict on a large percentage of people is not an acceptable price to pay to be able to go through the world without having to think about what you do and say. Privilege is a bitch–it seems nice when you have it, but it means your comfort is purchased by another’s pain and if you can go through life knowing that and still be okay with it, well then, you’re not a very nice person.
I have only (knowingly) met and interacted with one transgendered person. A transwoman coworker.
She’s nice and everything, but I admit there is something about her that slightly irritates me. Her style of dress. Everyone else in the office wears conventional business-casual mundane clothing. Meanwhile she’s wearing mismatched multicolored knee high socks with the bright red sparkly Doc Marten boots. And for awhile, her work email signature said something cutesy and juvenile like “Rainbows and kittens for everyone!”
There’s a part of me that feels like she’s probably just coming into her own, so I should cut her some slack. Eventually she’ll figure out a look and start blending in better. But I also kind of feel like she can come into her own at home, on her own time, just like everyone else manages to do. If everyone else is having to conform to a dress code, whether we want to or not, why shouldn’t she? I’d love to be able to dress like Punky Brewster too. But I want people to take me seriously.
I think the transgressiveness of trangsgenderism probably makes it easier for some transgendered people to flout other norms. And onlookers who would otherwise say something don’t because they don’t want to step on any landmines. Like, if I dared to come to work looking like Punky Brewester, I know at least two female coworkers would pull me to the side and ask me what the hell was going on. They would say it lovingly (maybe), but they would make it clear that my outfit was crazy. But would they ever say that to my transgendered coworker? I don’t know, but it is doubtful.
Actually, I think this is completely relevant. There are some people out there who naturally have both breasts and a penis. There are some people out there who have both breasts and a vagina, but XY chromosomes. There are some people out there whose genitals can’t easily be identified as either a penis nor a vagina. Some people might not be happy with this fact, but I think that everyone at least acknowledges that it’s true: There are some people who are naturally intersexed, with some traits of one sex and some traits of the other. And it’s not due to any choice or action on their part: That’s just the way they are.
Well, once you grant the existence of mental gender (which, again, many people, including many transphobic people, do), transsexuality is just another example of an intersex condition. Just as you can have a person with male chromosomes but female genitalia, so too you can have a person with male chromosomes and genitalia but a female mind.
Further, suppose that you do have a person who’s physically intersexed (say, XY chromosomes but female genitalia). Just what gender “should” that person identify as? If they identify as female, then they’re “delusional” about their chromosomes, and if they identify as male, then they’re “delusional” about their anatomy. If everyone must mentally identify as what their body is, then those folks are in a no-win situation.